Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words), also learning German and Esperanto

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Deinonysus
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Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words), also learning German and Esperanto

Postby Deinonysus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 pm

After I read some stories on an explaining computer book with simple words, I decided to try writing with the Up-Goer Five word help thing, which helps you to write with only the ten hundred most used words in the way of talking that I started to learn when I was a baby.

I also decided to learn the way of talking that only has one hundred twenty words. Its name means "good talk". I have learned it a little bit before, but I never finished the book. But maybe now I will.

Here are some great picture stories about the "good talk":



I am also taking a class in another way of talking that comes from the same family as the one I am using now, but came from across the water, and person/thing words change if they are doing something, getting something, have something, or so on.

I also have a hard time staying with just one way of talking, so I have also been studying some other ways of talking too:

  1. The way of talking that comes from the same part of the world as the one I'm writing in, but towards the right, and it is not in the same family as the lands around it. Words change even more (much much more) than in the way of talking I mentioned earlier. They are well known for a red thing that makes food better.
  2. I might also spend some time on the way of talking that the Doctor Who Hopes made. But I can never seem to spend much time on this way of talking before I get bored.
  3. There is a way of talking that comes from the new world, from two lands under the land where I live. It is in the same family as the way of talking that used picture writing before the people from across the water came. It is the most spoken way of talking in that land, that did not come from across the water. This way of talking is famous for a story about how the gods made the world. I took a look at this way of talking because I heard that it does an interesting thing that people like the Doctor Who Hopes, who make up ways of talking, like to use. In my way of talking, you say "he sleeps" or "he sees him." The word "him" is different, because something is being done to "him". But in some ways of talking, if "he" is doing something but not to something, "he" doesn't change. But if "he" is doing something to something, "he" changes but the thing he is doing something to does not change. So in ways of talking like this, you would say something like "he sleeps" but "him sees he" (even though "him" is the one seeing", and "he" is the one being seen).
  4. I am also interested in an old way of talking that was used in some early stories: some funny stories about people, some sad stories about people and the gods, and some stories about what kind of things people are or what kind of place the world is. People still use this way of talking, but it sounds very different now. They make very good food with a green thing that is like water but doesn't go into water, and food that is made from something that comes out of an animal with long things on its head. I am getting a book about this way of talking, and you can hear people try to speak it even though no one really knows exactly what it sounded like. This book comes from the land that took over the land that my way of talking comes from around ten hundred years ago, and we still use many of their words. I didn't get this book yet but I can't wait until I get it!
Last edited by Deinonysus on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby Neurotip » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:15 pm

Deinonysus wrote:After I read some stories on an explaining computer book with simple words, I decided to try writing with the Up-Goer Five word help thing, which helps you to write with only the ten hundred most used words in the way of talking that I started to learn when I was a baby.

What fun! First I worked out the 'way of talking' you're talking about in para 4, then I got the syntactic construction from para 3, and eventually I worked out 'Doctor Who Hopes' - that one took a while. I'm still wondering about the green thing that is like water but doesn't go into water though. Oil of some sort? I'm sure it's obvious when you know...
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby Deinonysus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:40 pm

Neurotip wrote:I'm still wondering about the green thing that is like water but doesn't go into water though. Oil of some sort? I'm sure it's obvious when you know...
Yes! It's the kind that comes from small green or black things that grow on trees. It was hard for me to think of a better way to say it because so many words are outside of the top ten hundred.
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby SGP » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:09 pm

Deinonysus wrote:
Neurotip wrote:I'm still wondering about the green thing that is like water but doesn't go into water though. Oil of some sort? I'm sure it's obvious when you know...
Yes! It's the kind that comes from small green or black things that grow on trees. It was hard for me to think of a better way to say it because so many words are outside of the top ten hundred.
Now I'd like to know your point of view on a certain topic. How does the ambiguity of "Toki Pona in Simple English" compare to the one of toki pona itself?

Because in TP, there is a built-in ambiguity. It is literally impossible to remove it, except by doing something like the following:
- Dropping a few words in another language.
- Pointing at some objects.
- (Wherever applicable) narrowing down one's sentences further and further. This could be rather cumbersome, and it isn't too popular even within the main TP community (or communities, to be exact). They do like a certain degree of ambiguity.

Because of that built-in and non-removable ambiguity, TP is sort of a double-edged sword to me. However, I do still love that double-edged sword because of more than just one reason.

And the lingua franca of the toki pona community is English, not TP itself.
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby Deinonysus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:53 pm

SGP wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:
Neurotip wrote:I'm still wondering about the green thing that is like water but doesn't go into water though. Oil of some sort? I'm sure it's obvious when you know...
Yes! It's the kind that comes from small green or black things that grow on trees. It was hard for me to think of a better way to say it because so many words are outside of the top ten hundred.
Now I'd like to know your point of view on a certain topic. How does the ambiguity of "Toki Pona in Simple English" compare to the one of toki pona itself?

Because in TP, there is a built-in ambiguity. It is literally impossible to remove it, except by doing something like the following:
- Dropping a few words in another language.
- Pointing at some objects.
- (Wherever applicable) narrowing down one's sentences further and further. This could be rather cumbersome, and it isn't too popular even within the main TP community (or communities, to be exact). They do like a certain degree of ambiguity.

Because of that built-in and non-removable ambiguity, TP is sort of a double-edged sword to me. However, I do still love that double-edged sword because of more than just one reason.

And the lingua franca of the toki pona community is English, not TP itself.

That is a great question! In this simple way of talking, you can say just what you mean to say much more easily. There are ten times as many words, and you can use the words in almost as many ways as in the normal, not-simple kind of this way of talking. There is no way I could have written my first writing in Toki Pona even if I could speak it very well.

(I decided to let myself use Toki Pona words on top of this simple way of talking).

In this simple way of talking, there is enough for you to write about how we got into space, or how the very small things that everything is made of work, or how the different ways of running lands work. The up-goer five computer picture book shows how this is done. But in Toki Pona, you can barely write about the most simple ways of using numbers. The person who wrote that computer picture book also has a book with more explaining stories like this, called Thing Explainer.

But there are still many things you can say in Toki Pona. You can talk to friends, ask for things, say how your day went, and many other things. When I have finished the book and learned all of the words, I will be able to say more about what you can do with Toki Pona.

Taking away the confusing things in Toki Pona goes against its reason for being. Having so few words helps you to think more simply. There is not a word for friend, you just say "jan pona" (good person), because why would you want to be friends with a bad person? The first picture story above explains more about this.

Some people try to make Toki Pona less confusing. There are only words for one (wan), two (tu), and many (mute). Some people try to add the word for hand (luka) to mean five, but this is not very pona (meaning simple as well as good). You can also talk about just the color you want by putting together the words for red (loje), yellow (jelo), and blue (laso), but if you go to far, that isn't very pona either.
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby Neurotip » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:40 pm

Deinonysus wrote:Yes! It's the kind that comes from small green or black things that grow on trees. It was hard for me to think of a better way to say it because so many words are outside of the top ten hundred.

Of course! In fact when we have that thing like water it usually comes from the land that is two lands under the land where we live :)
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby Deinonysus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:48 pm

I have been spending a lot of time on the Doctor Who Hopes way of talking. I think I'll add that to the ways of talking that I'm letting myself write here.

"Good/Simple Way of Talking" is harder than I thought! There are not many words to learn, but I think it is a bit harder to get used to it than the Doctor Who Hopes way of talking, because it isn't as close to the ways of talking in the upper-left part of the old world. If you know one or more of those ways of talking, you don't need to think much to say something in the Doctor Who Hopes way of talking. I thought I would go through the "Good/Simple Way of Talking" book very quickly, but for the past few days, I've only gone through one book-part every day. I think I'm on book-part one-less-than-ten right now.

Toki pona li pona mute ala! (Toki pona is not very easy!)

Mi faras multe da Duolingo en Esperanto. Esperanto ne estas tre malfacila, sed mi ne scias, kion mi volas fari kun ĝin. Mi preferas legi librojn kaj vidi filmojn en la originalaj lingvoj, sed ne ekzistas multe da originaloj libroj aŭ filmoj en Esperanto. Eble ekzistas, sed mi ne povas facile trovi ilin. Tio estas kial mi neniam longtempe lernas Esperanton.
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby SGP » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:05 pm

Deinonysus wrote:Toki pona li pona mute ala! (Toki pona is not very easy!)

I agree. It looks easier than it really is. From a certain perspective, the whole language is a riddle ;). You could even use it to confuse The Riddler himself (from those Batman series; although he isn't too sly anyway). To me, toki pona is something like an accompaniment instrument, like the plucked pizzicato strings. Rather than a Lead Instrument, like the guitar / harp / sawtooth wave synthesizer. One day, The Riddler set yet another trap for Batman and Robin. They had to evade some sharp blades coming "out of nowhere". To do so, they had to choose one particular key. They had some labels. Letters. Like C, E, F. Now which key was the one they had to take? Robin knew the answer.

Spoiler (using backwards speech): ".sprahs on sah ti esuaceB .[tebahpla eht fo rettel driht eht] fo yek ehT".

I think that at least after reading that spoiler, it could become rather clear to a person like you, because of some things you (personally) know. If it doesn't, you might want to re-read the whole description (i.e. anything that has been mentioned about that trap, above the backward speech part). And if it still doesn't, I can add a final one that explains everything in plain text ("Klartext sprechen").

But as for toki pona, sometimes guessing the meaning (and also being certain about it) could be much more difficult. Because there aren't any spoilers.
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby Deinonysus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:39 pm

SGP wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:Toki pona li pona mute ala! (Toki pona is not very easy!)

I agree. It looks easier than it really is. From a certain perspective, the whole language is a riddle ;). You could even use it to confuse The Riddler himself (from those Batman series; although he isn't too sly anyway). To me, toki pona is something like an accompaniment instrument, like the plucked pizzicato strings. Rather than a Lead Instrument, like the guitar / harp / sawtooth wave synthesizer. One day, The Riddler set yet another trap for Batman and Robin. They had to evade some sharp blades coming "out of nowhere". To do so, they had to choose one particular key. They had some labels. Letters. Like C, E, F. Now which key was the one they had to take? Robin knew the answer.

Spoiler (using backwards speech): ".sprahs on sah ti esuaceB .[tebahpla eht fo rettel driht eht] fo yek ehT".

I think that at least after reading that spoiler, it could become rather clear to a person like you, because of some things you (personally) know. If it doesn't, you might want to re-read the whole description (i.e. anything that has been mentioned about that trap, above the backward speech part). And if it still doesn't, I can add a final one that explains everything in plain text ("Klartext sprechen").

But as for toki pona, sometimes guessing the meaning (and also being certain about it) could be much more difficult. Because there aren't any spoilers.

Maybe you meant they keys of letters three, five, and seven. They key of letter six doesn't have raised notes either (although maybe something heavy would fall on them instead). But yes, the joke made sense. Don't over-explain, that kills jokes!

Se Esperanto estas maratono, do la tokipona estas sprinto. Por lerni Esperanton, oni bezonas nur multan tempon; oni ne devas pensi multe se oni parolas vesteŭropana(j)n lingvo(j)n. Oni nur bezonas tri monatoj, seks monatoj, aŭ eble unu jaro. Oni bezonas nur unu aŭ du semanojn por lerni la tokiponan, sed oni devas pensi multege en tio kurta tempo. Kaj oni devas pensi multi por paroli aŭ skrivi en la tokiponan.
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Re: Toki Pona in Simple English (the most used ten hundred words)

Postby SGP » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Deinonysus wrote:Maybe you meant they keys of letters three, five, and seven. They key of letter six doesn't have raised notes either (although maybe something heavy would fall on them instead). But yes, the joke made sense. Don't over-explain, that kills jokes!

Well, it was about a riddle, rather than a joke. And apart from (maybe) the backwards speech spoiler, I personally didn't see any over-explanation either. It was simply meant to be an example of a riddle that can be solved after reading some hints. Being mentioned for pointing out that unlike in cases like these, there are no spoilers in toki pona.

And it wasn't about numbers.

[https://tvtropes . org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/BatmanTheAnimatedSeriesE40IfYoureSoSmartWhyArentYouRich] wrote:Musical Trigger / Songs in the Key of Lock: A door has three possible keys, labelled "A," "C," and "D." The D key causes two blades to fly at Batman and Robin. When Batman tries to use the A key, Robin stops him, saying there will be three blades—the Key of A and the Key of D have three and two sharps, respectively. The correct answer is the Key of C, which has no sharps. They get through the puzzle.
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