Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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AndyMeg
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby AndyMeg » Tue May 14, 2019 4:36 pm

StringerBell wrote:Yesterday I decided to give Memrise a try. I think it was prompted by seeing that Radioclare is using it everyday. I had originally used Duolingo a little bit when I was first starting Italian, but I abandoned it quickly because quizzing myself on random words and isolated sentences is painfully boring for me and I just don't retain any of it. However, I wanted to see what my experience would be using an app like that now that I am at an intermediate level with Polish. So, I chose Polish 4 (they called it Advanced Polish, I think). I was surprised at how many beginner words/vocab they were using (she is, I am, etc...) but every once in a while they threw in a word I didn't know, like: środowisko (environment) and eventually it was showing me full sentences. I find the parts where I have to spell words or click on the words to put a sentence in order to be the most useful. I really dislike the pressure to click on things in a short time; even if I can choose the correct answer instantly without really reading anything, I'd prefer to not try to "race" and feel allowed to take my time to read things aloud.

What I've noticed is that even when they show me a few new words here and there, I still don't retain them. It's fun, but I'm not convinced that it's a good use of my time. However, even if it's not efficient, I might just throw it into my routine to spice things up a bit, at least until I get bored of it. There are quite a few other Polish "courses" on Memrise that look really interesting, so I plan to check those out.

I have a few questions, but I'll ask them next time because my notebook is in the other room and I'm feeling a bit lazy at the moment. :roll:

Memrise has an Android and an iOS app.The normal and classic review mode of the app let you answer without the pressure of a time limit. The quick review mode does have a time limit and can be a bit stressful. The app has the activity of clicking on the words to put a sentence in order, but it doesn't seem to have the one in which you have to spell the words letter by letter. But it has one activity in which you order things syllable by syllable (well, this is for korean. I'm not sure how it works for other languages).

If you go to the new "Memrise's Decks" website you can create your own customized courses.

I've recently been experimenting with creating customized courses with dialogues from k-dramas (as I'm learning korean) and I'm loving it so far because each time I see a sentence/phrase I remember in which part of the drama they said so and it makes it a lot easier to remember their meaning. For now you can use the Memrise Android/iOS app to study the customized courses from Decks. When I'm short on time I study with the Android app. When I have more time I may study with the browser/PC version which is more challenging and takes longer to finish a session. (But I also use the Android app a lot when I want to study for a long time without getting stressed, because I actually get tired pretty fast with the browser/PC version).
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby ロータス » Tue May 14, 2019 7:58 pm

StringerBell wrote:LATIN:

Watching that video about How to Read and Speak Latin Fluently on this thread: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 14&t=10478 was the nail in the coffin; I decided to give Latin a try. I've been thinking about Latin for some time now, but kept dismissing it because it really didn't make much sense to me to get into another language. I studied Latin for one year in high school after many, many years of French and I remember actually really liking the class (we did no translation nor grammar study, it was mostly just reading short stories and memorizing vocabulary).

I have no intention to study grammar. At all. My strategy will be a 100% comprehensible input approach, which until watching that video, I didn't realize was possible with Latin. I don't have any interest in speaking or writing Latin, I'm only interested in being able to read it, because there are some really awesome things in Latin to read (I'm not talking about highbrow stuff like Cicero, I'm thinking about guilty pleasure stuff like Satyricon). Speaking of Satyricon, my husband has a copy of it as a bilingual text with Latin on one page, Italian on the other. This could be a way for me to finally use Italian as a ladder for another language.

I have time on my hands since I work part time and my health issues prevent me from being able to do anything physically strenuous, so I'm not envisioning that this will compete with Polish or Italian since time is currently not in short supply for me. Polish and Italian will always be my priority. I'm expecting to spend 30 minutes per day or less on Latin. If it in anyway compromises Polish or Italian, then I will take Latin out of rotation. I'm mainly just curious to see if I can get to a point (in a few years?) where I can read it relatively easily without studying grammar. I'm also hoping to get some kind of discount through Italian and Polish (I know Polish is not a Romance language, but there are some Latin origin words, like dom, plus I'm familiar with the concept of case endings and fluent word order, so I'm not expecting Latin to be much of a shock)

Anyway, this might be a stupid idea, but I'm curious to see where it goes.


Will you be using Lingua Latina as the video said? Will you be following the path the video mentioned or have you not decided yet?

Thank you for linking that post. That video really reassured me that I should be fine with just Le français par la «méthode nature» (wish this had audio) and New Assimil French with Ease. I keep eyeing Lingodeer and French for Reading but now will hold off until I see how far I get with a comprehensible input approach. Your old log and this one as really helped me with my language learning so I wish you the best in your languages :D
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Tue May 14, 2019 10:12 pm

Thank you for the Memrise pointers, AndyMeg!

ロータス wrote:Will you be using Lingua Latina as the video said? Will you be following the path the video mentioned or have you not decided yet?


I was planning to post in detail about what I'm doing once I actually got started (still waiting for my order to arrive in the mail), but since you asked: I decided that even though I don't plan to speak Latin, I need to be able to "hear it" in my head while I'm reading, so I wanted to start out with something that had accompanying audio. I must have instantly forgotten that the Lingua Latina supposedly has audio online somewhere as soon as that video ended, otherwise I probably would have started with that.

So, since I had a bit of a mental glitch there, I decided to use the Lingua Latina as my second resource (assuming that I decide to stick with Latin). My first resource will be Cambridge Latin Course: Unit 1 (which I found used online for $6) and I also bought the audio CD for $30. Even though there isn't audio for every story, it seems that what it does have is of extremely high quality. As far as I understand, this book seems to be a graded reader with a glossary that has really compelling stories. I guess I'll find out if that's true! Once I'm done with it, I plan to use the Lingua Latina, and then I'll probably follow the other suggestions from the video.

It seems really strange to me to think about learning Latin using comprehensible input, because I always thought of it as a language that was all about grammar and declensions and slaving over a desk for two hours to translate a sentence, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that it's a language like every other language and people thousands of years ago weren't learning it with declension tables, so maybe it's not so weird.

****************
EDIT: (whoops, forgot to include this earlier)

ロータス wrote:Your old log and this one as really helped me with my language learning so I wish you the best in your languages :D


Thanks! Knowing that my log was useful to someone is good motivation to keep up with it. I find inspiration from your log (even though you are learning languages I'm not, I still find it very useful), and I'm looking forward to reading the new French one you started!
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Elsa Maria
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Elsa Maria » Wed May 15, 2019 4:07 pm

I'm excited to read that you are venturing into Latin! I know I grumbled about the Cambridge book, but it grew on me. I just finished the text this week. It took my class nine months to go through the book, but of course it could have been done at any pace and what constitutes "doing" a textbook varies as well. I kept Latin as a 3rd place language all year, and I feel that my pace has been very leisurely. I should note that I started as a false beginner.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Wed May 15, 2019 11:18 pm

POLISH:

Let's kick things off with a couple of quick questions:

1) by mógł = mógłby? I keep coming across both versions and I'm assuming that they are interchangeable.

2) Cała przyjemność po mojej stronie (the pleasure is all mine). Does anything change if it's a woman speaking vs. a man, or is it always written exactly the same, regardless of who is speaking?

I was tense and dealing with a lot of annoying and stressful stuff, so I was convinced I wouldn't be able to do any Polish, but I decided instead to just do easy stuff and try to use it as a way to relax. So, I watched a few episodes of Rodzinka.pl, and did about 1 hour on Memrise. I realized that if I prop a piece of paper on the edge of my computer, I don't see the little timer counting down which makes it much better for me.

In one of the episodes of Rodzinka.pl that I watched today, the word środowisko popped up. After having seen it on Memrise, then writing it here on my log, and then hearing it in the show, I might now actually be able to remember it. So maybe Memrise isn't such a waste after all! :D

ITALIAN:

As I think I mentioned (did I?) I am rereading my novel Noi Siamo Infinito from the beginning, but intensively. I can see this will take quite a long time. There's not even that much new stuff, but what I do find I am spending a long time with, writing example sentences, discussing them with my husband, trying to use them, myself, so it's very slow-going.

I learned a really useful expression today from doing this:
passarsela peggio = to do worse / to be in a worse situation / to be worse off
passarsela meglio = to do better / to be in a better situation / to be better off


Mi sembra che un sacco di persone se la passino (<congiuntivo triggered by "mi sembra che") molto peggio.
(It seems to me that a lot of people are worse off.)

I also found out that "sto bene" only means "I'm ok" health wise, as in, I'm feeling ok. If you want to say "I'm ok" with the meaning that things are going well in general, you'd use the construction from above:

Ce la passiamo abbastanza bene = We're doing ok
Me la passo bene = I'm doing ok

*I'm going to make an effort to use "me la passo bene" from now on.

I'm also doing some scriptorium with phrases and sentences that I'd like to be able to have at my command like:
-Ogni tanto mi capita di pensarci. (I think about it once in a while)
-Non è messo così male, vero? (It's not that bad, right?)
-Faccio fatica a ricordare. (It's hard to remember)
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Thu May 16, 2019 5:55 am

StringerBell wrote:1) by mógł = mógłby? I keep coming across both versions and I'm assuming that they are interchangeable.

This question may be quick, but the answer probably will not ;) But I will try to do my best.
"by mógł" is rather something is done that he will be able to do something
"Przynoszę mu wodę, by mógł się napić"
It could also "żeby mógł" be used. But native speaker would most often simply say "Przynoszę wodę, żeby się napił". But in the sentence with "by mógł" you stress that you bring him water to provide him the possibility of drinking. In the simpler form, it simply states that the water is for him to drink or stresses the fact that he is thirsty and will drink something.
Now compare that with the sentence:
"Przynoszę mu wodę, mógłby się jej napić" - it suggests that you provide him the possibility, but probably he does not want to. In the past tense:
"Przyniosłem mu wodę, mógłby się jej napić" - It even suggests that you provided him the possibility, he didn't do it and you are little impatient because of that.

If further clarification will be necessary, do not hesitate to ask.

StringerBell wrote:2) Cała przyjemność po mojej stronie (the pleasure is all mine). Does anything change if it's a woman speaking vs. a man, or is it always written exactly the same, regardless of who is speaking?

Yes, it is always written exactly the same.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri May 17, 2019 12:29 am

cjareck wrote:This question may be quick, but the answer probably will not ;)


Just when I thought I was starting to get a grip on Polish...I realize that I don't know anything!

Thank you for explaining those differences. I'm not sure I understand the nuances, but at least I know that they aren't interchangeable.

*********
POLISH:

I've been feeling pretty crappy, so I decided to do very low-energy stuff. I watched a few episodes of Rodznika.pl and did some Memrise. They are not really showing me much in the way of new words, but I still find it useful. As a beginner, Memrise and Duolingo and those sorts of apps just didn't work for me at all. But as an intermediate, I find the reinforcement to be useful. I am saying everything out loud, so I'm trying to get in some pronunciation practice...I find that saying things out loud helps me to remember things more than saying them silently in my head.

In trying to assess my comprehension with the Rodzinka.pl episodes...I think I'd say that 20% of the scenes I can understand very easily (full or near full comprehension). 60% of the scenes I understand enough words that with facial expressions, body language, and context I can follow what's going on, even though I'm losing plenty of words or even whole sentences. And 20% I don't understand at all, or I think I'm understanding, but then someone says something and the other person laughs or gets pissed and suddenly I realize that I have no idea what's going on. So far, I've watched 26 episodes (all are without subtitles). I think I'm still in the 1st season, and I'm very curious to see how my comprehension is once I get past the 10th season.

ITALIAN:

Intensively rereading my novel. It's a constant reminder of how much I haven't automatized (is that a word?) even if I can easily understand it passively. Not much else new to report.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm

POLISH:

I meant to ask about this yesterday but I forgot. I learned a new expression on Memrise, and I wanted to check that it's a legit expression that I should actually know and maybe even use myself:

palnąłem straszne głupstwo = Polish equivalent of the English expression I put my foot in my mouth
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Fri May 17, 2019 1:30 pm

I don't know the English idiom, so I can't confirm or deny. Polish sentence means literally: "I said something terribly stupid". "Palnąć" in that context means something like: to say without prior thinking or consideration
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri May 17, 2019 10:42 pm

ITALIAN:

I just learned something about Italian that is blowing my mind. I wanted to write it out here while I still understand it well enough to re-explain it in my own words; maybe it will help me to remember it long term.

In the last hour, I was able to just ask my husband about things as I came across them in my novel, which is something I really like to do because it's instant feedback/explanation, though I don't get to do it too often. I happened to notice that in a sentence, a verb that isn't reflexive was used reflexively:

fumare = to smoke

So I would expect the sentence to be: Patrick e Sam hanno fumato qualche sigaretta. Except the sentence used the verb reflexively: Patrick e Sam si sono fumati qualche sigaretta. When I saw that, I called out across the room: "Hey, fumare isn't a reflexive verb, why is it being used reflexively?"

Apparently, with lots of verbs that aren't normally reflexive, you can make them reflexive to show that the person is taking a particular pleasure in doing that thing. So in the case of the example sentence above, they are really taking pleasure in the cigarettes they're smoking.

This is can be used with a ton of verbs, for example:
-Mi sono mangiata una feta di torta = I ate a slice of cake. (and really liked it)
-Mi sono fatto una bella dormita = I had a good night's sleep. (finally, I got to sleep as much as I needed, and I woke up feeling really good)
-Mi sono fatto un giro in moto = I took a nice ride on my motorbike.

The normal verb to drink isn't reflexive (bere). So if you wrote/said:
-Ho bevuto un bel bicchiere di vino, it could be either that you drank a big glass of wine, or a good glass of wine. But if you wrote/said:
-Mi sono bevuto un bel bicchiere di vino, there's no doubt: you drank some really awesome wine that you savored.

***Making regular verbs into reflexive verbs as a way to show that the person really got enjoyment out of what they're doing is something that occurs colloquially, it is not normally found in novels or anything "formal".
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