Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

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IronMike
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby IronMike » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:17 am

Xenops wrote:I was poking around on the Internet, and I noted that Harvard is the only U.S. university that has a Celtic department: https://gsas.harvard.edu/programs-of-study/all/celtic-languages-literature

A decade ago I did a Cornish course by correspondence. The instructor was a graduate student in Harvard's Celtic department. He concentrated on the resurrection of Cornish. He's now in Hawaii as a linguistics instructor (I think).

For the record, UC Berkeley has an (undergraduate) department of Celtic. Notre Dame has an Irish Department. Boston College has an Irish program.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:54 am

So today I actually sat down and did something. I've gotten the "Practice Makes Perfect" series (as well as the Uso del español one), and decided to start at the preliminary chapter of the vocabulary book and chapter 1 of "Complete Grammar". I did all the exercises in those, and did well when I checked my answers. I'm not sure how much I really like practice makes perfect, as they give you some things with no explanation (for example, giving le da un ambrazo a su amigo without explaining the le) which frustrates me when I miss it later on. But I'll stick with it for another chapter or two -- definitely can't hurt as review, and I can always turn to the Schaum's book I have as well (which I'll probably do for more reinforcement). I also don't like their focus on Latin America, though it makes sense given the books are marketed for those in the USA; I just wish they'd give me some practice with vosotros!

That said, I'm not sure if I'm going to keep with chapter 1 > chapter 2 like my original plan was with the complete grammar. I've covered the present tense already, and know when to use it well enough. I think I'll move on to the chapter which distinguishes preterite and imperfect just for some additional practice, then move up to the future for the same reason. Then I'll start the conditional chapter, which is where the B1.1 book I bought in Malaga starts. I'm also going to be going through my Spanish book from college to fill in some gaps, like placement of the object clitics in relation to the verb, etc.


I didn't do any listening, however, which I seriously need to do. And I need to find a tutor on iTalki and perhaps set up something. I have found one from Malaga, as I think I mentioned, but I've just been procrastinating on setting things up. I do, however, have one question that I haven't been able to get answered to my satisfaction -- when is the simple present used as a progressive. I asked a native-speaking acquaintance on Discord about it, and he said go with the gerund form most of the time, but then PMP used the simple present; I mentioned it to him, and he said he definitely would've leaned towards not using the progressive as a translation. The sentence was Louis llega a la puerta -- Louis is arriving at the gate/door, which he would've parsed as 'Louis arrives at the door', and not with the progressive. He also knows linguistics, so I'm inclined to listen to him, but I dunno. Is it something that has changed that quickly in Spanish, perhaps? I also really need to get my alveolar trill down. I just can't do it, though I can do the uvular one and other ones! It's quite frustrating, and I'm putting off improving the rest of my pronunciation until I can do that. Any tips would be appreciated there, as well.


And, while I haven't read any more in An Béal Beo, I did read a book called Colourful Phrases in Irish by Micheál Ó Conghaile. It was an interesting list of Irish idioms and was an entertaining short read. I'm definitely going to have to incorporate some in use of the language; they're quite entertaining. Perhaps I'll share some later, it's on Scribd afterall

I still want to share some of An Béal Beo, however. Unfortunately, none of it relates to star-names this time, but the times of the day.

Tómas Ó Máille wrote:An chéad tráth a bhí ann an mhaidin (Laid. matutina), timpeall is a sé a chlog. Trí huaire ina diaidh bhí an teirt (Laid. tertia hora) timpeall a naoi a chlog. Idir sin agus an meán lae bhí an t-eadra ... Timpeall is a deich nó leathuair tar éis a deich, atá an t-eadra.

Tar éis an mheáin lae tagann an trathnóna (tráth-nóna = nōna hōra, Laid.), i.e. an naoú huair tar éis a sé. Ionann sin ó cheart agus a trí a chlog. Trí huaire ina dhiaidh sin bhí easparta ag an sé a chlog. Feasgar an focal atá in Albain air; 'bia an fheasgair' atá acu ar bia deireadh lae.

Trí huaire ina dhiaidh sin aríst bhí coimpléid, i.e. ag a naoi a chlog. Ina dhiaidh sin bhí iarmhéirí ag a dó dhéag san oíche. Midnocht ainm eile a bhí ar an tráth céanna. Bhíodh ar na manaigh éirí arís ar a trí a chlog ar maidin. Tiughnáir a bhí ar an tráth sin, i.e. an tráth deiridh(?)



N.B. My translation is going to use military time, just to make it more specific. The actual text uses a 12-hour clock.

Tómas Ó Máille, trans. Galaxyrocker wrote:
The first period was an mhaidin (Latin. matutina), around 06:00. Three hours after that was the teirt (Latin tertia hora), around 09:00. Between that and midday was an t-eadra ... Around 10:00 or 10:30 is "an t-eadra".

After midday comes the trathnóna (tráth-nóna = nōna hōra, Latin), i.e. an ninth hour after 06:00. That is correctly at 15:00. Three hours after that easparta was at 18:00. Feasgar is the word in Scotland for it; 'food of the feasgair' is what they call the last meal of the day.

Three hours after that again was coimpléid, i.e. at 21:00. After that was iarmhéirí at 00:00. Midnocht was another name for the same period. The monks used to have to rise again at 03:00. Tiughnáir was the name given to this time, i.e. the last period of time(?)


It's quite interesting to see how Irish traditionally divided up time, and to think how many of these words have fallen out of use. It's also no surprise that so many of these words came from Latin, either as a direct borrowing ( .i. maidin, teirt) or as a calque ( .i. trathnóna). I am interested in how many of these would still be understood in the modern langauge. Obviously maidin and trathnóna are both used, but the latter now has a meaning stretching from after-noon until the end of evening; I once heard it said it's trathnóna anytime between 12:00 and dark, when it finally turns to oíche. Notice how that word was not mentioned at all by Ó Máille in this section. There's another section right after it, where he gets more specific, where he does mention oíche, which pretty much is full dark. I might have to quote that one at some point, but it's longer and I don't want to translate the entire thing, really. Sorry y'all, as it is super interesting how they divided up the day.

One thing I did realize is that, shortly after reading this, I started noticing hte word easparta in Ag caint linn féin, that I just finished reading. So that one was known by Joe Steve, at least, and it's likely that it would still be recognized by at least the older group of Gaeltacht natives. Quite fun!


Other than that, I've just been doing my normal chatting with friends in irish via text. Sadly, not much voice practice, which sucks as I really need to work on my pronunciation. I asked someone from /r/languagelearning who I know has tricks to work on pronunciation how to improve, and he suggested finding someone with a strong Connemara accent (easily done, thanks Mairtín Tom Sheáinín!) and shadowing them for 5 minutes at a time while recording yourself. Then struggle through it and see where you sound off and try to mimic him better. Since there's a decent backlog of MTS's podcasts from his radio show, as well as from the TV show he hosts, Comhrá, I think I'll get started with that as soon as I can find the discipline.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby Suairc » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:25 am

I too find it a shame that these lovely words have fallen out of use, though I suppose it's inevitable considering most people now work outside the home and orientate their day around office hours!

An Béal Beo is a great book, though sometimes I wish that it contained illustrations to help explain some of the more abstract points.

Your post reminded me of this little video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psmucfTs5Pk
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby Suairc » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:34 am

galaxyrocker wrote:
Other than that, I've just been doing my normal chatting with friends in irish via text. Sadly, not much voice practice, which sucks as I really need to work on my pronunciation. I asked someone from /r/languagelearning who I know has tricks to work on pronunciation how to improve, and he suggested finding someone with a strong Connemara accent (easily done, thanks Mairtín Tom Sheáinín!) and shadowing them for 5 minutes at a time while recording yourself. Then struggle through it and see where you sound off and try to mimic him better. Since there's a decent backlog of MTS's podcasts from his radio show, as well as from the TV show he hosts, Comhrá, I think I'll get started with that as soon as I can find the discipline.


Here's a recording of Tom Phaidí Mac Diarmada and the text of the story from another site:

https://www.ainm.ie/Bio.aspx?ID=1570

http://www.peterkgriffin.com/TomasBui.htm

He was a renowned seanchaí from Cois Fharraige. The recording was made in his later years but his deliverance is ideal in it's enunciation and speed.

What works for me with other languages is to listen again and again to the same recording so that I can easily anticipate every line. Only then do I attempt to repeat each phrase (not necessarily whole sentences), pausing the recording as needed.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:07 pm

Suairc wrote:I too find it a shame that these lovely words have fallen out of use, though I suppose it's inevitable considering most people now work outside the home and orientate their day around office hours!

An Béal Beo is a great book, though sometimes I wish that it contained illustrations to help explain some of the more abstract points.

Your post reminded me of this little video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psmucfTs5Pk


It truly is a shame, but it is happening everywhere, so at least it's not (entirely) because of the shift to English. That said, I completely agree with you -- I wish An Béal Beo did have some illustrations or further explanations. There's times where I really don't know what he's talking about, such as the stars one (I'm really going to have to just sit down with a star map and see if I can't figure it out). Also, I'd never seen that video before, so I'm going to be looking at their stuff more for sure.

I hadn't seen those recordings of the seanchaí either, though I've definitely heard of him. I used NuachtTG4 and a transcript (thanks to Vifax) when I was training my ear, so I might see if I can't also incorporate it into my pronunciation, since she's from Connemara.

I'm going to listen to the segment first so I do know what's being said and then I'll repeat it. I also got sent this link by Henkkles, so I'll try to incorporate that as well.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:01 am

I did some more with Spanish today, and think I'm fairly good on the differences between ser and estar. To those ends, I did chapter 7 of Schaum's Outline of Spanish Grammar, focusing on the difference between the two, and Chapter 3 of Practice Makes Perfect: Complete Spanish Grammar. I did well on both parts, with the only ones I missed mainly being those where I didn't completely understand what the sentence was saying. Last night I also looked over the direct object pronouns, and I'm fairly confident in those and where to place them, though of course I still need some practice. I also need to get a tutor and really start working on my pronunciation and vocabulary, however. It's difficult at times to be a grammar lover, when I really need to learn to speak the language!

That said, I'm going to try to make a concerted effort to read daily in Spanish, even if it's just a page or two from a young adult novel or a news article on El Mundo (even though I'm teaching Latin Americans, I'm much more inclined towards news and stuff from Spain). I also should get back into listening to some Spanish stuff, but I've been too lazy to download any new episodes of News in Slow Spanish.


As to Irish, I got a good chance to use it today. Because the GAA is greedy, it's a real PitA to get to watch the games in America. While I did find a stream, I learned that it was being live-broadcast on Raidió na Gaeltachta as well. So I was able to listen to Galway-Kerry game in Irish. It was pretty sweet, and I really didn't have any problems, except for when they used the Irish names of people who go by their English ones! I was also able to easily pin down the dialects of the two presenters. The lady doing the actual calling of the game was clearly from Connemara, with clear references such as the /o:/ > /u:/ change in nós, as well as vocab usage hebrí instead of cibé/pé, etc. The colour commentator was clearly from Munster, likely Kerry as that's who they were playing, but I'm not sure. I did hear some rabhadar though, and his pronunciation was fairly clearly Munster.


I've also started reading another collection of short stories -- Bróga Johnny Thomáis by Jackie Mac Donncha. He was a lecturer for an hour at the course I attended a few weeks ago, and we read one of the stories out of it which was really interesting. It's full of rich Irish, and he certainly has a great command of the language, so it's a nice read. I've already seen a few structures I was unaware of, which is great. Definitely leads me to learning some more. Unfortunately, I haven't gone through much else in An Bhéal Bheo, yet, and I really do need to; it's just so interesting. I've also been off transcribing from Dúchas for a bit, need to get back on that too. The quality of Irish there is absolutely amazing, and I'm still on the search for my astronomy terms!

Sadly, now I'm being tempted by Pāli again. I really want to read those Buddhist texts. I've also have started reading Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World. It looks to be quite an interesting read.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Haven't done as much as I would've liked, truth be told. I'm just horrible at sitting down and doing things I don't have to do. That's one reason why I really like having classes in the language, as I'm forced to do stuff to improve my ability, and one reason why I'll always maintain that my classes, especially the immersion ones, are the reason my Irish is at the level it is. And why I've actually been able to get my Spanish kickstarted as well. That said, I have been reading a lot. I'm abut 250 pages into Empire of the Word and it is really interesting; one thing I learned is that the order of consonants described by Sanksrit actually influenced the order in which Japanese lists the kana (read, the latter was taken from the former). Quite an interesting fact to hear!

Spanish

I've only done two chapters of work this week, but I'm still fine with that. I covered the chapter on the preterite and the chapter on the imperfect in Practice Makes Perfect: Complete Spanish Grammar. I did pretty fine with the conjugations, though I lacked some vocabulary and nuances when it came to translating. It is kind of frustrating when, on the translating exercises, they give you things that require constructions you haven't seen or learned yet, but I guess it really can't be help. I generally avoid the full-paragraph translation sections because of that, though I decided to do part of it on the imperfect chapter (until I filled the sheet of paper I was using). And even then, there was a structure that I had no clue what it was doing, but the book expected me to know it was supposed to be formed that way. It's kinda frustrating, and I remember why I don't do those, even though I probably should do them more for that exact reason.

I haven't done any listening, but I have read a few pages in a book, one of the ones discussed in the thread here last week, El mercenario de Granada. I saw the except that Iguanamon posted, and realized that I understood the grammar and it was really the vocabulary that I was lacking, so I decided to get the novel. It's been slow going, and at times demotivating, but I'm definitely coming along with it, even though I haven't finished the first chapter. My issue is definitely vocabulary, much as I feared, but, thankfully, there's a free Spanish-English dictionary on the Kindle I've been using, and I can always go to SpanishDict.com as well. That said, if anyone would like to recommend some easy short stories in the language, I'd appreciate that. I prefer to start off with shortstories as they're, well, shorter. That means I can finish one quicker and easier, which provides a nice bit of motivation when reading in a language I'm not great at, whereas novels can seem like they drag on forever.

I'm also open to any recommendations on things to watch/listen to. The main problem is that I don't watch much TV, and really only listen to music and stuff while in the car...and I often zone out on podcasts and such, so it's just a pain to get listening practice unfortunately. I also need to start writing things off the top of my head, perhaps I'll start using iTalki's "Notebook" feature. Though, despite that, I have been in contact with one of the friends I made in Spain, and we're writing solely in Spanish to each other, which is a huge plus.

Irish

Well, I really enjoyed that short story collection a lot. In fact, I finished it in four days. The stories were quite good and entertaining, and the quality of Irish was absolutely amazing. I've picked up Dúil as well from Scribd, so that'll probably be my next read in Irish (Josquin, we could read it together if you wanted). I've been writing and using the language about like normal, as well as trying to learn some new structures to fill out my grammar and vocabulary in the language. I did get a new book in the other day, Foirisiún Focal as Gaillimh, by Tomás de Bhaldraithe, which is essentially a list of words that are used in County Galway (he lists where he collected the word) that aren't in Ó Dónall's dictionary, or that appear with a different meaning there. One of the ones that caught my eye at first is beatha, which is the general word for 'food' in Connemara, i.e. beatha Síneach instead of bia Síneach for 'Chinese food' . They're quite interesting, and I really want to scan and OCR the book because it's such an amazing book for learners, and it'd be much easier if I could search it by number to find the ones used in the area I want to learn haha.

I also went through reading some of The Irish of Iorras Aithneach, which, thankfully, is available online for free...Even though I want to shell out the 200€ for it from DIAS. Maybe one day it'll go on sale and I can pick it up. Until then, I received an email from one of the teachers of our class over the summer about books/resources for natural Irish, so I'm going to peruse that and, hopefully, attend the online course about Cúltúr Dúchais in the Gaeltachtaí. Just depends on the fees that go with it, unfortunately.

I haven't done much listening, and really need to be listening to Raidió na Gaeltachta and Connemara speakers (I've got a list of them from the main teacher/organizer of the course I did) and really working on my pronunciation. It's just a matter of discipline and sitting down and doing stuff, to be honest... Not my strongest suit, unfortunately, for anything, really. I'm surprised I've been as doing much with the language(s) as I have been, to be honest.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby eido » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:45 pm

I recommend any song by Juanes, Enrique Iglesias, or Reik. They're pretty simple, but I might know more than you so that might be putting a lot on you to understand. From your log you seem to be a low B1 like I'd put myself at, but I'm a bit confused because of the information you've provided. I know you've been reading my log - I have recommended there the show I'm currently watching, Supernatural. If you've got a good handle on tenses and indirect and direct object pronouns, it should be easy to watch. Check that, you need a good base vocabulary too. Some words are new for me just as they will be you, but I think it's an accessible show. Any of the shows I've watched so far should be, and if you've followed my log since I started it you'll know what those are. Any American cartoon from the last 20 years should do, or you could go older. But to each their own - if you don't like cartoons, that's chill too. What is your worst skill so far in Spanish, one you're ready and willing to improve?
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:41 am

Thanks for commenting and the suggest Eido!

eido wrote:I recommend any song by Juanes, Enrique Iglesias, or Reik. They're pretty simple, but I might know more than you so that might be putting a lot on you to understand.


I appreciate it! I'll definitely try listening to them, and maybe using the lyrics to improve my understanding, or at least distinguishing the words.

From your log you seem to be a low B1 like I'd put myself at, but I'm a bit confused because of the information you've provided.


I'd say I'm upper A2/lower B1. I finished the A2 modules, and passed them, at the school I attended this summer, but didn't start the B1 ones, even though I bought the first book for it before leaving. Right now, I'm just reviewing and making sure I'm good on the difference between ser/estar and the preterite/indefinite before moving on.

I know you've been reading my log - I have recommended there the show I'm currently watching, Supernatural. If you've got a good handle on tenses and indirect and direct object pronouns, it should be easy to watch. Check that, you need a good base vocabulary too. Some words are new for me just as they will be you, but I think it's an accessible show. Any of the shows I've watched so far should be, and if you've followed my log since I started it you'll know what those are. Any American cartoon from the last 20 years should do, or you could go older. But to each their own - if you don't like cartoons, that's chill too.


Thanks for the recommendations! I watched Supernatural in English up through season 9 or so, when I thought it just got too crazy, and wishing I had stopped after 5 when it was supposed to end haha. I might definitely go back and do that, though cartoons would be fun to watch; bring back some nostalgia watching Pokémon in Spanish!

What is your worst skill so far in Spanish, one you're ready and willing to improve?



Really listening and speaking are what I need to focus on, since I've got a classroom full of Hispanic students with varying levels of English. It's just a matter of sitting down and practicing them, mostly. And finding people to practice with, of course.
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Re: Nótaí Galaxyrocker -- Irish, Spanish and Wanderlust

Postby eido » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:59 am

galaxyrocker wrote:I appreciate it! I'll definitely try listening to them, and maybe using the lyrics to improve my understanding, or at least distinguishing the words.

Really listening and speaking are what I need to focus on, since I've got a classroom full of Hispanic students with varying levels of English. It's just a matter of sitting down and practicing them, mostly. And finding people to practice with, of course.

These two songs are probably their simplest:



And about your students. Are you an elementary school teacher? Or an adult ESL teacher? I have trouble finding resources for classroom Spanish. It's a very practical type, and there should be more of it, but there isn't. Maybe a kind forum member would like to help us out. I work with kids, too. Most Hispanic kids though have a good command of English - they're effectively bilingual, except for two kids who moved to Florida this summer. It was frustrating not knowing how to communicate with them, but at the same time they didn't want to be communicated with. They wanted to be spoken to in English. Ahh.
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