Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Systematiker » Sun May 13, 2018 5:22 pm

Ani wrote:
Systematiker wrote:
I've also got to admit to myself, and everyone, that this is my limit. I simply won't be able to add anything that isn't replacing something. Even if/when I get some of these active study languages to a point where consumption and enjoyment is my major activity in the language, I'll have an upkeep routine that will prohibit other additions without dropping something. I'll have to accept rust and "change time" on things I do minimal upkeep on, but the alternative is probably to drop them, so in that light it's a decent deal.



Aww. This is kind of sad. I miss the days gone by when someone would propose an obscure language and you'd be off chasing that ball :) Maybe this will just be a plan that is subject to change like your log title. You've probably been working too hard. Maybe you can devise some cyclic maintenance plan so next time Elania comes by and says "hey... We need to learn Komi-Zyrian" You're ready to jump on board.


I totally still reserve the right to dabble in obscure projects! This is just “it” in terms of languages that are going to have long-term retention. It’s one thing to say “hey, this is cool, and I’ll get to like A2, or maybe even B1, because it’s fun to play with” and another to say “ok, I’m adding this and putting in the effort to get where I can read that language’s literature, and watch cinema, and get conversational enough that even when I leave it, it’s rust and not true loss.” It’s kind of what I’ve decided about Basque and Gaelic (and prior to that Welsh, and my plan for Galician) - lots of fun, play a bit, maybe get somewhere, but it’s ok if I forget it all or don’t keep it up (and, it’s ok if I don’t get anywhere! That’s a hard one for me).

That also leaves me space to dabble in something, and if I love it, make adjustments as necessary - whether that’s accepting more loss elsewhere or straight dropping something.

Expugnator wrote:I've been having similar thoughts in my log, and I have in mind that I want to keep discovering distant languages, so I think related languages can be confined to a minimum with no big losses. I don't think you can lose passive fluency you've gained in a language such as Portuguese, for example.

All this to say: if I'm only able to study a limited number of languages which are at the same priority level, I'd always favor the opaque/semi-opaque ones. One weekly podcast of 15 minutes is totally okay for maintenance, and if the time comes when you need to use one actively (a trip for example), you can always warm-up. Or you can exchange some messages in the language every once in a while, just to toggle that language's mode in your brain.

In my case it would be ok to do even less French and Papiamento than I'm doing (10 min a day for French and around 15 for Papiamento). Now the way things are I can't foresee NOT working on a language daily, and having a weekly or bi-weekly maintenance schedule laid over the daily one is a new complication, but that might happen as the time comes when I feel I've "finished" a language.

TL/DR: Swahili.


I actually caught up on your log after writing this! I actually may take some of your insight about maintenance amounts, which would free up some space as well. I mean, it’s not like I want to be done. I also may get more space out of dialing back than I anticipate - this is all kind of in response to a situation where I found my previous amount of engagement untenable, and I’m looking for a pensum I can keep up even when I’m super short on time (you’re certainly inspiration for this). So yeah there’s at least space to flirt with e.g. Swahili when we get around to it as a group, I’m just relatively sure that it will be a “fun project” rather than a “new addition.”




——————————————————————-

And in addition to all of this, yet more changes.

My suspicion about those resources for Ukrainian and Czech was right - free and legal, but not quite the spirit of the FLC.
I’ll accept it for Ukrainian, which means my best resource now is that podcast and synergy from Russian. So I’ll even drop my use of streaming music (not that I listened to more than a couple hours worth anyway) and continue it as a “pure” FLC, which also means that it can’t take too much time as I don’t have the resources to spend that much time on it.
However, I’m considering giving up the FLC restrictions for Czech. I’ve fallen in love with the language and I was seeing good progress with what I was doing, but I just want more (not to spend more money, mind you, I’m still cheap, I just want to leverage the courses I found). I’m going to have a huge imbalance, too, without some kind of exercises (e.g. I read a few newspaper articles out of Dnes last night but I can’t produce correct conjugations). Yet the competitive part of me isn’t quite ready to bail on the challenge. I’ll decide this week.
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Systematiker » Thu May 17, 2018 2:34 pm

Update time - refocusing efforts has helped me get back in the groove!

Spanish
ES Reading: 6254 / 10000 ES Listening: 190 / 200
FSI: 28 / 53
Reading Pedro Páramo with the Spanish group, but I actually only read a few pages so far (at the dentist, too, so I wasn't super concentrated). I've still got that FSI progress bar up there - but I'm almost certainly going to drop it at this point. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing here, which is probably not the most entertaining for updates. I forgot to log a movie I watched, the name of which I don't remember (it was a Spanish movie about a bunch of misfit monks who put together a soccer team). I've not been back to my audiobook yet, I'm using audio time differently lately.

French
FR Reading: 3756 / 10000 FR Listening: 92 / 200
Deciding to spend less time on French has led, of course, to my wanting to spend time with stuff in French. Not huge amounts of time (the reading bar change is because I stopped that Bible plan halfway through), but some, which makes me feel OK about not spending time because a little bit of contact a couple times a week is surely enough to maintain things. I'm feeling pretty good about the decision, even for French (which is the hardest to cut back on, because more sunk cost).

Portuguese
PT Reading: 875 / 10000 PT Listening: 16 / 200
Still reading along, less than normal lately, and watching the new season of 3% on Netflix.

Catalan
CAT Reading: 245 / 10000 CAT Listening: 7 / 200
Started La Plaça del Diamant, but I've only read the introduction so far. There was a really awesome line, but the book is at home and I'm not, so this comment about it is a reminder to myself to quote it here in a future post. And I really want to watch the rest of Merlí soon.

Galego
Started back with Clozemaster. Really, really tempted to just try reading the novel now and stop with Clozemaster, I'm consistently doing 10-12 sets daily with no errors.

Swedish
SV Reading: 1289 / 10000 SV Listening: 33 / 200
FSI: 8 / 16
So I do want to cut back on Swedish, and I've so far only listened to one podcast this week and read a few pages of my pulp novel (Vägen till Jerusalem, much easier to understand now), but there's also a part of me that's like "just finish out FSI though" - well, we'll see. Long audiobooks stream poorly. Oh, and I still want to watch that show... (so much for cutting back, right?)

Danish
DK Reading: 130 / 10000 DK Listening: 5 / 200
Nothing.

Latin
LAT Reading: 50 / 10000
Desultory reserach-related reading of a few lines.

Ancient Greek
GK Reading: 70 / 10000
Back to preaching, so I at least get a weekly text, and I'm going to go back to my little reading projects.

Hebrew
Pimsleur: 11 / 30
LR Psalms First Pass: 27 / 150
Jenni: 7 / 30
I've been working with an app here that seems pretty helpful at present (though it's a lot of material, I'd be swamped with no prior experience), and getting in daily time, so that's a significant improvement over long stretches of nothing.

Korean
Video: 9 / 200 TTMIK 2: 1 / 25
FSI: 1 / 19
Moving on TTMIK level two, and went down a rabbit hole watching 태양의 후예 until late last night, of which I had entire sentences and simple exchanges that I could follow (small victories, y'all).

Czech
CZ Pent: 9 / 70
Haven't returned to the Bible plan yet (the site was briefly down, too). Still wrestling with how I'd like to proceed. I would for sure make greater gains if I were to bail on the FLC for Czech, but at the same time, I'm not sure if it's worth it to non-complete (personal) and at this stage. I'm back to Clozemaster, and I can puzzle out articles from Dnes on familiar topics (again, I'm too lazy to read with a dictionary in hand, so this is pretty cool)...so abandoning the FLC aspect would allow me to train production more, but I don't think I'd be doing much different for reception. (By the way, I know nothing about this newspaper - I had a few available, so I picked the first one on the list. Czech speakers, feel free to give opinions on the media and/or recommendations, I don't know enough Czech to know what perspective I'm getting most of the time!)

Ukrainian
Back to the podcast, not managing daily but getting there.

Russian
MT Foundation: 8 / 8 MT Advanced: 2 / 5
Assimil: 57 / 90 Reading: 0 / 10000
RU NT: 25 / 90
Did some more MT Advanced, and another day of the NT plan. Read some of the Ilya Frank reader, which I feel is super helpful and I should do more of. I'm thinking about transitioning to a proper course, but I never did do that Assimil plan, and I'm not seeing terrible results (Ogrim posted an article he read, yesterday I think, that was hard, but not opaque). Probably I need to sit down and re-read the Assimil up to this point (maybe read to 60 and then re-read 1-60?). Probably I'm not going to do the 2-week Assimil experiment, I'm just not able to work it out. Tentative plan: Get whatever I'm doing with Assimil and MT done by the end of June.

Dutch
NL Reading: 66 / 10000 NL Listening: 20 / 200
After weeks of doing little to nothing, the "dialing back and including Dutch" plan has worked and I listened to an hour-long podcast.



You'll notice I've dropped the sections for the languages I'm setting aside, as well as anything that doesn't have an update (German, Swabian, and so on).
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Systematiker » Fri May 18, 2018 2:22 pm

Mercé Rodoreda wrote: Escriure un pròleg, o sigui parlar de mi (o de la meva obra, que és el mateix), no m'ha apassionat mai.


The identification of the person of an author with her work (even a "great" work), is a really interesting viewpoint to me. "I wrote this. This is who I am."

Wild.
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Systematiker » Sat May 19, 2018 6:38 pm

Ok, a week or so in, and I love my new emphases. The only thing I haven’t done something in this last week has been Danish, and I’ve done more in every language except French than I was doing even in the weeks before I was away. So it’s not just that I’m back home, it’s a pressure and time thing. I honestly think trying to push so hard in French was burning me out on everything else - and even French is getting enough attention, as my wife and I have gotten a few magazines in French today (cooking and parenting stuff).

Ukrainian is ticking along, I’m seeing results in Korean, I’ve seen a huge jump in Czech (I can watch film! Ok, I miss a lot, but I can follow the story!), Hebrew is sticking halfway decent, and for Russian I’ve got Echo Moskvy on right now and I’m getting about half (sometimes more, sometimes even a solid 90 seconds in a row) of what they’re talking about.

I’m doing daily stuff in my main study languages, I’m keeping up with my “SC-style” languages, and I’m doing more in everything else (except Danish) than when I was trying harder. Now I find extra time where I’ve hit my daily or weekly goals for everything...


So... (Ani, are you ready for this? You knew I couldn’t stick to one plan...)


I started dabbling in Persian. I’m permitting myself to dabble as long as I’ve 1) already hit my “weekly” goals and 2) done something daily in the main 5 study languages. I’m not worried about tying it to my SC ones because that’s a different sort of study and time. I’ve started with the Chai and Conversation podcast, and I’m enjoying it so far. No commitments, no long-term plans, just checking it out.






Totally not contemplating any more changes. Nope. Not me. Not “hey you tested ILR 3 in Spanish so hit those film and page numbers and then make more space for new stuff.” Not “hey Expug is probably 100% right about Portuguese and you can’t take the exam for like a year anyway.” Not “maintaining B2 with stronger receptive skills is probably a great idea, because Expug is probably right about ramping up and I’m never gonna need those languages without warning anyway. Not “Georgian looks super cool right now too.”
Not me :D :D
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Ani » Sat May 19, 2018 7:19 pm

Systematiker wrote:So... (Ani, are you ready for this? You knew I couldn’t stick to one plan...)




Yes! Yes!! Our golden retriever is back!
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Expugnator » Sat May 19, 2018 11:35 pm

This Chai and Conversation seems really cool! Luckily I'm not taking any Arabic-alphabet language before Arabic itself, so no risk here.

I know nothing about learning Portuguese as a second language (and I mean learning, not teaching). It was merely an example on my other post :D

Yes for Georgian!!
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Systematiker » Sun May 20, 2018 12:44 am

Expugnator wrote:This Chai and Conversation seems really cool! Luckily I'm not taking any Arabic-alphabet language before Arabic itself, so no risk here.

I know nothing about learning Portuguese as a second language (and I mean learning, not teaching). It was merely an example on my other post :D

Yes for Georgian!!



You’re still probably right, though. I got to really good receptive skill in Portuguese really quickly, as, what, my fourth Romance language (fifth counting Latin), and while I can probably push myself from “reading literature with .5 lookups per page” to “reading literature with no lookups and evaluating word choice”, not pushing this isn’t going to make me slide somehow back into incomprehension. With limited opportunities for output anyway, I’ll be better served to train output when I need it.

As for Persian, I went wrong at least once trying to do Arabic first when it’s really Persian I’m interested in. I may never learn Arabic (never say never! :lol: ). Someone else on the forum, can’t remember who, mentioned the program a while back, and the name stuck with me.

Don’t tempt me more with Georgian, I’ve resisted so far even finding out where to start.
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Systematiker » Wed May 23, 2018 3:29 pm

Well, it's time to take a look at what I've been doing - I'm quite pleased at the moment.

Spanish
ES Reading: 6254 / 10000 ES Listening: 191 / 200
FSI: 28 / 53
The only "should" here is that I ought to have read more of Pedro Páramo, because I instead have not and have been actually reading little in Spanish. Read El Pais a couple of times in the last week. Watching a bit, podcasts, etc. What's to report in Spanish, I just do the same thing, but I enjoy it.

French
FR Reading: 3756 / 10000 FR Listening: 95 / 200
Of course, I decide to dial back on French, and then several things bring it back. My wife and I are doing a month of recipes from a French magazine, I started watching Station Horizon, and decided I was going to start the second season of Marseilles as well. But it feels different, it's more enjoyable that French has been for a while (and it's fun to do stuff in French with my wife again). Read the paper once, too.

Portuguese
PT Reading: 875 / 10000 PT Listening: 16 / 200
Still reading my two novels, and watching 3% when I get some time. Reading news.

Catalan
CAT Reading: 245 / 10000 CAT Listening: 7 / 200
Read the paper a couple of times. Probably going to try to read a chapter or so this week. Maybe watch because I'm starting to get a list of things I want to watch in Catalan, but I'm supposed to be spending less time, not more...

Galego
Stopped even clozemaster at the moment. Not sure if I will finish the clozemaster set, I may really just start the novel, because I'm impatient.

Swedish
SV Reading: 1289 / 10000 SV Listening: 34 / 200
FSI: 8 / 16
Watched some of Halvvägs till Himlen, which is pretty funny, and Fallet, which is half in English anyway. Read the Svenska Dagbladet a couple of times.

Danish
DK Reading: 130 / 10000 DK Listening: 5 / 200
Again, supposed to be doing less, instead started The Rain (but only watched half the first episode)

Latin
LAT Reading: 50 / 10000
Nothing. Thinking about breaking out my Caesar for some practice.

Ancient Greek
GK Reading: 70 / 10000
Still the weekly stuff, and I'm planning on getting back to Herodotus

Hebrew
Pimsleur: 11 / 30
LR Psalms First Pass: 27 / 150
Jenni: 7 / 30
I'm having to do the Hebrew Pimsleur more than once to get things to stick, and I actually think I need to do the 12th one a third time, so I didn't log it. I'm doing a bit of app learning as well, but I think I'm reaching a point where I'm going to have to block out focused time for Hebrew, because I don't seem to be able to get enough of a mass to move forward with the small amounts of time I am spending. Hebrew just doesn't quite click into the way I do languages, and I don't know what I need to change about my approach. And it's not that I always do low-hanging fruit, either, I struggle more with the right approach for Hebrew than for e.g. Korean (literally, I have more trouble with my rhythm in Hebrew than any other language, and more than any language I've ever tried other than Basque and Arabic. Even the little bits of Mandarin or Japanese I once learned fit my rhythm in a way Hebrew doesn't). I've got a "way" that works for me,* and I can't get it to work for Hebrew.

Korean
Video: 11 / 200 TTMIK 2: 5 / 25
FSI: 1 / 19
Just a hair more watching, and some youtube videos. I feel like TTMIK is good right now and I'm making progress, and I'm retaining what I'm working with - I'm surprised that I'm able to see progress without more focused time, but I'm not good at making that time happen so I'm glad of it.

Persian
Well, that got out of control quickly. I'm halfway able in the alphabet already, so I'm working on solidifying that - and I've done the first three lessons of Chai and Conversation, twice each...and some youtube videos, and looked at an Assimil-like book (much cheaper though!), and unearthed the 10-lesson Pimsleur Compact that I have floating around here, and found some apps (free, so not great, but hey vocab)...What I'm not going to do is dive into a course, or anything, I think I might burn it out, but seriously there's something going on here. I always had a favorable view toward Persian, and always figured it would be pretty hard. Turns out that I never paid attention to the fact that it's a cat IV language, not a cat V, and in my experience and among those cat IV languages, I find it not the most difficult cat IV language I've tried (i.e. I find Hebrew harder, but that may also have something to do with being at a different point of struggle with Hebrew). Presently, having not bought that book and not started with that Pimsleur set, I could even do this as an FLC...but I don't think so.

Czech
CZ Pent: 9 / 70 Video: 1 / 200
I'm probably technically out of the FLC for Czech. I stuck to the strictures and didn't use that other material I had access too, and found out I can watch film (!!!) by finding stuff on youtube that the copyright holder has put up (what appears to be an independent film studio), but I've also read Dnes a couple of times, and I've just now made the connection that I get access to that in a way that disqualifies it from the FLC. Hmm, does violating the rules because I'm an idiot end my challenge? I didn't desire to end it, so maybe this disclaimer is enough, that hey, I read the news a few times in a (technically) non-free way (that's kind of like a library?), but really, it shouldn't have had that much influence...I need to look at their website and see how much content is available online, I may not have even gotten anything that isn't freely available anyway...

Ukrainian
Reviewed all the podcasts up to this point, and have begun with youtube videos. If I can't manage the FLC for Czech, I can at least manage it here - and I'm enjoying Ukrainian, after having struggled a bit with resources.

Russian
MT Foundation: 8 / 8 MT Advanced: 2 / 5
Assimil: 60 / 90 Reading: 0 / 10000
RU NT: 25 / 90
Read Assimil up to lesson 60 and reviewed it all. I keep meaning to progress more in actually learning stuff, and I keep going "but yeah, you can understand enough of what you hear that listening is studying, and it works for other languages...", so here's to putting my nose back to the grindstone. I've really seen an improvement in my reading lately...which means, my facility reading the script, not the corresponding vocabulary. I'm probably ready for some kind of graded reader, after I finish the Ilya Frank reader.



*that "way," by the way, is essentially "flail around for a bit, then pretend I'm Iguanamon and I'm going to do a multi-track, get about halfway through a course where I've got the basic grammar down, and then slide almost entirely into media consumption. Pretend I'm Expug and try to do a little actual study each day, but really end up at like a 10:1 ratio of consumption and study, and do short bursts of study from time to time." It ain't fast, but it ain't stressful either. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby reineke » Wed May 23, 2018 3:39 pm

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Re: Re-Inventing the System: Systematiker repeatedly changes his plans

Postby Expugnator » Wed May 23, 2018 3:58 pm

Care to share the title of that Persian course?

You're not tempting me at all, it's all set in stone: Hebrew then Syriac then Arabic and only then Persian (with maybe Hindi on another track), but I like to grab material while it's available.

Did you know Georgian has many Persian loanwords and Arabic through Persian loanwords? Think about the mutual discount!
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