Languid Language Learning

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Cavesa
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Cavesa » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Elenia wrote:Yep. Me, me, me. My jokes often miss their target, which is in part because the people I talk to don't necessarily understand my humour and in part because I still can't joke in Swedish. I don't need to become a comedian - I can't make jokes in English most of the time, either. But it would be nice to get laughs about as regularly as I usually can when speaking to friends in English. In one of Systematiker's posts from a while ago, he complained that it can take several revisions for his 'voice' to come through in German. I'm not sure my voice ever comes through in Swedish. If it does, it's only for the occasional phrase or sentences. Oh, complain, complain. I know what I have to do to get better. I just have to do it.


This resonates with me so much! There has even been a thread on the forum that included interesting experiences about the fact the non natives are not supposed to show a sense of humour actively and many attempts for it are taken for mistakes instead.

This is one of my goals in my foreign languages and why I don't settle for lots of good advice about smaller vocabulary being enough and similar things. I joke a lot in my native language (one could say my family's native language is sarcasm, it's also a survival mechanism), I use "weird" and rich vocabulary, my style and personality are a mix of the high culture and low. And I hate not being able to be like this in another language.

Of course we need to adapt our sense of humour to a different culture, but that is different from having to suppress this part of our personalities due to either our lack of skill or the prejudices by others. I want my jokes to be judged horrible for the same kind of reasons some people don't like them in Czech, not because I am a foreigner and not supposed to make jokes, or because I mess up linguistically. And I dislike not being free enough to attempt it.

We don't need to be comedians, we just need to be ourselves and that takes some skill in a foreign language. I wish you progress in this so much, Elenia, I am sure you are already well advanced but I understand your desire to go further and break the remaining walls.

I am sure your voice already shines through sometimes, and it will only grow stronger and stronger.
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Elenia
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Elenia » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:49 pm

tiia wrote:
I'm only very slowly catching up with the forum. I can't read too much at one time, my head starts to hurt*, so it's gonna take a while (especially Expug's and Rick's logs. You guys write so much!).


Just in contrast to me, who wrote only a handful of posts. There's only one post each for the months of June, July and August.* :D

*ok, August is not over yet.


This is why I'm already caught up your log ;) good luck on the job and apartment hunts, by the way! I'm sure you'll find something! :D

Cavesa wrote:This resonates with me so much! There has even been a thread on the forum that included interesting experiences about the fact the non natives are not supposed to show a sense of humour actively and many attempts for it are taken for mistakes instead.

This is one of my goals in my foreign languages and why I don't settle for lots of good advice about smaller vocabulary being enough and similar things. I joke a lot in my native language (one could say my family's native language is sarcasm, it's also a survival mechanism), I use "weird" and rich vocabulary, my style and personality are a mix of the high culture and low. And I hate not being able to be like this in another language.

Of course we need to adapt our sense of humour to a different culture, but that is different from having to suppress this part of our personalities due to either our lack of skill or the prejudices by others. I want my jokes to be judged horrible for the same kind of reasons some people don't like them in Czech, not because I am a foreigner and not supposed to make jokes, or because I mess up linguistically. And I dislike not being free enough to attempt it.

We don't need to be comedians, we just need to be ourselves and that takes some skill in a foreign language. I wish you progress in this so much, Elenia, I am sure you are already well advanced but I understand your desire to go further and break the remaining walls.

I am sure your voice already shines through sometimes, and it will only grow stronger and stronger.


The humour attempts being seen as mistakes thing is really frustrating! People don't try to correct me, but I get odd looks and I have to explain that it was just a silly joke... Thank you for your support, and your kind words :) we will both get there!
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Brun Ugle
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Brun Ugle » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:35 pm

In my case, people sometimes think I’ve misunderstood something because of being autistic, when I’m really just making a joke that they are too stupid to get.
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Cavesa
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Cavesa » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:46 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:In my case, people sometimes think I’ve misunderstood something because of being autistic, when I’m really just making a joke that they are too stupid to get.


I see how this could happen. Sense of humour is a complicated thing even in a shared language. It is one of the best parts of being human but also one of the trickiest. I know plenty of people who don't understand jokes in general, it is not always the fault of the joking person. And some jokes just have prerequisites (like a high or low enough intelligence and education, a specific job, or age).

I was just trying to find a quote about humour that I had read and loved years ago. I think it was written by Terry Pratchett and it was something like "Most people would rather confess to murder than not having a sense of humour" but I can't find it in the google results now. But I've found something else and I might not be the only one to enjoy it, so I am sharing a link. A paper on what is humour, and in a database of medicine articles!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269245/ "What Is Funny and What Is Not?" is a nice topic and I have read only a part of the article so far. And it was published in the Croatian Medical Journal.
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lavengro
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby lavengro » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:36 pm

Cavesa wrote:
Brun Ugle wrote:In my case, people sometimes think I’ve misunderstood something because of being autistic, when I’m really just making a joke that they are too stupid to get.


....

I was just trying to find a quote about humour that I had read and loved years ago. I think it was written by Terry Pratchett and it was something like "Most people would rather confess to murder than not having a sense of humour" but I can't find it in the google results now.


If it was Pratchett, he may have lifted it from Frank Moore Colby: "Men will confess to treason, murder, arson, false teeth, or a wig. How many of them will own up to a lack of humor?".
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Expugnator » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:54 pm

Meus parabéns, Sra. Elenia. Linda foto!

Wish you a happy future with plenty of love and languages. It's great to see you back with even more enthusiasm.

Actually being able to play on words and have fun is one of my open goals in my TLs. IRL I tend to alternate silly jokes with very funny ones so I want to have some of this as a TL speaker as well. One of the signs the I'm starting to get good in a TL is when I mentally translate lyrics from the crappiest pop songs into my TLs.
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Elenia
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Elenia » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:46 pm

On humour in a foreign language: the funny thing is that Swedes always expect me to get their Swede jokes. Most of the times I can. But when I've made one, even in the same style, they often don't get it...

Obrigado, Expug! One of my friends used to translate songs on the radio in her head as a way of practising. I tend to prefer just listening to and learning TL songs directly, the in-head translation is too much pressure for me. Plus, I don't listen to all that much music, as it tends to distract me from whatever else I'm doing.

---

I got a good amount of reading done today, and have almost finished the first chapter of MI. This slow pace isn't sustainable, so here's hoping the actual course can make the book more interesting! Either that, or that we're not expected to go through everything. The book does have some good tips for someone learning their first language independantly, or for those who aren't used to taking control of their own learning. It also has a very strict idea of what it means to 'know' a word. I'd like to apply it to some of my vocabulary, but I am happier with a more nebulous understanding for the rest. Fun fact: I've been using the word 'nebulous' without being one hundred percent certain of its connotations. A quick google confirms that I've been using it correctly, but there are a good number of English words that I've been just plain wrong about in the recent past. Maybe I should adopt a stricter approach...

I fell for a brief moment down a rabbit hole of things about becoming a good conversationalist. This is a skill I've always wanted. I love talking, and sometimes I even like talking to other people! But the quality of the conversation depends very much on my interlocutor. I can't always carry a conversation on my own (in any language), even when I really like and want to talk to the other person. I have some friends who are amazing conversationalists, and who are really able to draw the other person out. I want to be like that. I got some stuff in English, and some stuff in Swedish. It'd be nice to be able to engage people in both languages.

I also did a fair bit of clozemaster today, in Swedish, German, Portuguese and Finnish. I'm not sure about the new feature they've introduced, where you instantly know if you're getting a word wrong or right. On the one hand, it feels a bit like cheating. On the other, it's a good way to tell what word they're looking for, when there are synonyms that will fit. I'm working around it. If I think I know the word they want, I'll type that in without looking, (although I do check sometimes before submitting, because who likes to be wrong? Certainly not me!). If I think I know what words should fit, I'll fiddle around until I find the first letter or two. If I don't get it by then, I just get the sentence wrong and try to type in the right answer, something I always used to do with wrong sentences anyway. If I truly have no idea and know it, I just click enter twice. It's working thus far, and doesn't seem to be too negatively affecting my ability to recall the words under my own steam.

Finally, I read a bit in the book of letters I talked about. I would also like to do some German reading today, and some German listening, if possible. I tried to find an audiobook on Spotify, but Wachen! Wachen! had an awful sound at the very beginning that went on for too long for me to comfortably try listening to the rest of the book and the narrator of Frostfeuer has an awful voice. Sorry, person, whoever you are. It was really horrible, like someone trying to talk through crushed rocks. I guess the next thing to try is Steinernes Fleisch by Cornelia Funke.

A nice quote from the (subtitles of) the video of conversation tips:

Celeste Headee wrote:Du måste gå in i varje konversation med tron att du kommer att lära dig något.


ETA a small P.S.: I have over 2000 reviews in clozemaster Swedish/English :oops: I usually never even have enough word played and unmastered at a time, but I was on a real clozemaster kick before I fell off the wagon, rolled down a hill and ended up lost in a forest for a few months...
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Brun Ugle
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Brun Ugle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:31 pm

What materials are you using to learn to be a better conversationalist? I could use some help in that area too.
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Elenia
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Elenia » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:00 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:What materials are you using to learn to be a better conversationalist? I could use some help in that area too.


Nothing in particular, at least not yet, but here is the TED talk. It was interesting, and stuff I'm learning. It's more about being a good listener, which I don't know that you need? But if I find anything else, I'll share it with you :)

(I like talking to you, for what it's worth!)
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Brun Ugle
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Re: Languid Language Learning

Postby Brun Ugle » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:26 am

Elenia wrote:
Brun Ugle wrote:What materials are you using to learn to be a better conversationalist? I could use some help in that area too.


Nothing in particular, at least not yet, but here is the TED talk. It was interesting, and stuff I'm learning. It's more about being a good listener, which I don't know that you need? But if I find anything else, I'll share it with you :)

(I like talking to you, for what it's worth!)

I like talking to you too. It really depends on the other person. If we have common interests or the other person is good at keeping the conversation going, then it’s no problem. But some people I struggle to talk too.
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