Hi everyone, I’m a new member on here and would love to learn Spanish. However, I struggle with low confidence in my speaking abilities, and I lack discipline.
I mainly want to learn Spanish because that’s the language my family speaks (and Portuguese), but none of my siblings speak it and I really don’t want the language to die out in my family. I truly want to persevere a piece of my heritage.
1. Is it too late for me to become fluent? I’m 18 years old but I’ve been learning on and off since 15. I’m considered intermediate-low on a proficiency rubric which I think is B1.
2. How can I increase my confidence in speaking to other people? Specifically my family. They aren’t the easiest to impress.
3. How do I self-teach myself? I’ve been listening to YouTube videos, music, news and changed my language settings but struggling to come up with a clear and effective schedule.
4. Will I ever reach a convincing accent? Specifically Castilian. I have a Spanish teacher who started learning in college and his American accent is very obvious but I’ve read that after the age of 12 you’re pretty much stuck with your native accent.
One method of learning I absolutely can’t stand, is consciously learning imperfect, preterite, and other forms of grammar. It makes me feel like I’m stuck in a classroom. I definitely prefer comprehensible input. I’m a high school student and I can probably dedicate 30-45 minutes to learning the language while in school, but I always find myself burnt out with school work, or a week will go by and I’ve realized I haven’t practiced at all, so I’m critical of myself. And my family does tease me every time I try speaking in Spanish, criticizing my accent or accusing me of not trying hard enough , hence why I don’t want to sound like my Spanish teacher. I understand it’s mostly in jest but it’s not the best motivator and has made me feel uncomfortable speaking in front of them, so I practice by myself, like when walking my dog for instance. Learning Portuguese would be nice too, and I can already read some of it, but unfortunately it’s uncommon in most parts of the United States so it would be impractical (most of my Portuguese family lives overseas).
Advice for self-teaching Spanish?
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Re: Advice for self-teaching Spanish?
Creativa wrote:1. Is it too late for me to become fluent? I’m 18 years old but I’ve been learning on and off since 15. I’m considered intermediate-low on a proficiency rubric which I think is B1.
Absolutely not. There are languages I started in my 20s that I've been mistaken for a native speaker of. One of which is Spanish, incidentally.
4. Will I ever reach a convincing accent? Specifically Castilian. I have a Spanish teacher who started learning in college and his American accent is very obvious but I’ve read that after the age of 12 you’re pretty much stuck with your native accent.
The whole "critical period" thing is controversial. The idea of it being too late and anyone learning late being stuck with a bad accent is disproven by people like me. When I say that, I get a bit of waffly hand-waving, either saying that I'm different (I was clearly never neurotypical, even though I didn't have a diagnosed cognitive difference before I was in a crash that caused a lot of cognitive differences) or just finding vague reasons why I wasn't genuinely breaking the rule.
That said, the term "critical period" survives, and while some people don't like it as being too absolutist, it is now fairly generally accepted as being correct specifically for first language acquisition.
Which means...
One method of learning I absolutely can’t stand, is consciously learning imperfect, preterite, and other forms of grammar. It makes me feel like I’m stuck in a classroom. I definitely prefer comprehensible input.
The problem is that Krashen's input hypothesis was part of a big notion of "learning like a child". If you attempt to learn like a child, you will end up with the problems that children who migrate later in life do, and they never get a convincing accent, and even have some characteristic errors in sentence construction etc.
BUT....
What you don't like is bad teaching. The overemphasis on rules doesn't work, no... but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, because the rules are absolutely useful to adults learning the language if done right.
That said...
I’m a high school student and I can probably dedicate 30-45 minutes to learning the language while in school, but I always find myself burnt out with school work, or a week will go by and I’ve realized I haven’t practiced at all, so I’m critical of myself.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with not doing heavy work on it while you've got other cognitively-demanding learning going on. If you want to just watch Spanish TV shows, learn Spanish songs or whatever as a way of unwinding, that's great: it will contribute to your long-term goal, even if it's not going to teach you the language all on its own.
Get rid of the stress for now and you can get rid of the fear, and you can come back to it later when you're not juggling multiple very different subjects and tiring out your attention.
5 x
- iguanamon
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Re: Advice for self-teaching Spanish?
Welcome to the forum, Creativa. Cainntear gave good advice.
I was an 18 year old once and I was learning Spanish on my own back then. I didn't have the resources available to me that you have easily available at your fingertips. My accent, is good enough for me. I have traveled throughout Latin America and Spain. I have never had a problem with being understood or understanding. I also speak Portuguese with a Brazilian, half Paulista, accent. Again, no problems in Brazil or Portugal. So, a good accent is indeed possible as an adult.
Your situation as a language-learner is as a "heritage-speaker"- someone who has a second language history in their family. Many people here on the forum follow a philosophy of delaying speaking until they are "ready" to speak. Some of these folks never get "ready". I don't speak from day one of learning. I speak when I get the opportunity. I realize that in the beginning I am not very good at it. The way I have found to get better is to keep speaking until I do get better. I work on it.
What you're doing with "self-talk" helps a lot with that. There are conscious ways to practice speaking- "shadowing" is one of these that can be done on your own.
Media consumption is a big part of my learning. However, I also need explicit study- even if it is "dry" and "boring. I'd venture to say especially if it is dry and boring.
Learning a second language to a high level means thinking in the language to me. I like a course with drills (dry/boring) so I can call up the right conjugations and grammar when I need it. Fortunately there are good, free courses available like FSI Spanish Basic Course, which despite its name is more useful after acquiring the basics elsewhwere.
A good course is Destinos, an old PBS course first broadcast in the 1992. It is a video instruction course with separate books and audio available. It consists of half an hour video episodes with 52 episodes- also available on youtube if you're outside North America. There are many other good Spanish (Assimil is a good one) courses available for purchase. Pimsleur is a good audio only course which can also help train pronunciation and speaking. Your library may have it or you can ask for an inter-library loan.
While I consider native media critical to my learning, I use it after I have done a course when I have more of a chance to take advantage of it and leverage it to "turbo-charge" my learning.
A good way to advance your speaking is by using "language islands" to "bootstrap" your Spanish in conversational situations.
A good accent can be learned.Discipline can be learned as well. Two of the most important keys to learning a second language are being consistent and being persistent. Being consistent will win the game. Life happens, we are human, and we can't always be consistent. Being persistent will keep you in the game until you can be consistent again. In other words when you can't keep a study routine, at least do something to keep in contact with the language- a song, and audio, a short reading- something.
Welcome to the forum, again y ¡suerte!
I was an 18 year old once and I was learning Spanish on my own back then. I didn't have the resources available to me that you have easily available at your fingertips. My accent, is good enough for me. I have traveled throughout Latin America and Spain. I have never had a problem with being understood or understanding. I also speak Portuguese with a Brazilian, half Paulista, accent. Again, no problems in Brazil or Portugal. So, a good accent is indeed possible as an adult.
Your situation as a language-learner is as a "heritage-speaker"- someone who has a second language history in their family. Many people here on the forum follow a philosophy of delaying speaking until they are "ready" to speak. Some of these folks never get "ready". I don't speak from day one of learning. I speak when I get the opportunity. I realize that in the beginning I am not very good at it. The way I have found to get better is to keep speaking until I do get better. I work on it.
What you're doing with "self-talk" helps a lot with that. There are conscious ways to practice speaking- "shadowing" is one of these that can be done on your own.
Media consumption is a big part of my learning. However, I also need explicit study- even if it is "dry" and "boring. I'd venture to say especially if it is dry and boring.
Learning a second language to a high level means thinking in the language to me. I like a course with drills (dry/boring) so I can call up the right conjugations and grammar when I need it. Fortunately there are good, free courses available like FSI Spanish Basic Course, which despite its name is more useful after acquiring the basics elsewhwere.
A good course is Destinos, an old PBS course first broadcast in the 1992. It is a video instruction course with separate books and audio available. It consists of half an hour video episodes with 52 episodes- also available on youtube if you're outside North America. There are many other good Spanish (Assimil is a good one) courses available for purchase. Pimsleur is a good audio only course which can also help train pronunciation and speaking. Your library may have it or you can ask for an inter-library loan.
While I consider native media critical to my learning, I use it after I have done a course when I have more of a chance to take advantage of it and leverage it to "turbo-charge" my learning.
A good way to advance your speaking is by using "language islands" to "bootstrap" your Spanish in conversational situations.
A good accent can be learned.Discipline can be learned as well. Two of the most important keys to learning a second language are being consistent and being persistent. Being consistent will win the game. Life happens, we are human, and we can't always be consistent. Being persistent will keep you in the game until you can be consistent again. In other words when you can't keep a study routine, at least do something to keep in contact with the language- a song, and audio, a short reading- something.
Welcome to the forum, again y ¡suerte!
6 x
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Re: Advice for self-teaching Spanish?
All reasonable methods require the consumption of tons of input, but be wary of methods that encourage you to avoid recall (active retrieval). You could end up watching hundreds of hours of video with little to show for it. Same is true for Duo. Low effort generally means low levels of results.Creativa wrote:I definitely prefer comprehensible input.
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Re: Advice for self-teaching Spanish?
Hi, welcome to the forum, Creativa!
(warning: a long post, sorry. )
Both confidence and discipline can be worked on. Confidence often gets naturally a bit easier as you improve, and further improves with experience. Discipline is a challenge, but you can find many various attitude towards it in our community. Some members achieve great results by being really discipline, they are regular in their learning, stick to the schedule, they are awesome and worth following. Some of us (including myself) have learnt to more or less circumnavigate our problems and challenges in terms of discipline, schedules, and other such stuff.
But based on my small observation of heritage learners all over the internet (as my "heritage langauges" are all three or four generations ago, I am not part of the group), I'd highly recommend you find other reasons to learn, other things to enjoy, and otheir ways to feel reward. Your heritage is good. But don't put all your eggs in one basket, when it comes to motivation.
Not at all. It's normal to achieve a high level in one's twenties or thirties, or even much much later. Have a look in the logs section. We have a few members well above that age (even already retired!), and they are so impressive! 18, that's very young. Don't believe the stereotypes. If 18 was too old to learn something hard like a language to a high level, it would also be too old to learn anything else, like for example getting a university degree.
-improve your Spanish. It is much easier to be confident, when your confidence is backed by real skills and knowledge. Empty confidence with no skills would be just laughable. Confidence at B1, when you already know quite a lot of stuff but are painfully aware of all that is still left to learn, that's hard.
-Don't be too harsh on yourself. You will mess up many times, you will make mistakes, you will not always speak or interact in the best way you'd want to present yourself (well, that happens even in one's native language). Don't psychologically punish yourself. That's the way to the anxiety hell, not to confidence. It's ok. You're growing. If you don't manage to speak up, or say a nice and complex sentence, or react quickly enough right now, you'll try again next time.
-Don't take impressing your family as your priority. Families are pretty much always the hardest to impress, not only with the language skills. A lot of other aspects will get into this mix, that can motivate their reactions and attack your confidence. Individual members' levels, family traumas, experiences speaking Spanish in the US (I have no doubts some of them have experienced xenophobia and other such "nice" stuff), expectations, overall attitudes towards praising or criticising young family members... Don't rely on it. Impress yourself, impress other people (you can impress us with any miniprogress in your log, if you make one in the logs section. And we are also good at cheering for each other in moments of hardship), the family will eventually get on board. At the latest in a few years, when you're a proven C2, and so at ease in Spanish that nobody sane could doubt your achievement!
I'd highly recommend getting a coursebook and following it. A B1 one, a B2 one, perhaps C1. And of course a lot of input, but not only it, or the results won't be optimal at all. I'll return to this a bit later, when reacting to your "I prefer CI" statement.
What do you mean by convincing? Absolutely native accent? Probably not, you are not a native. But a light neutral accent (not the usual American atrocity. Or the usual atrocity clearly identifying other nationalities either), that's definitely achievable.
You are not stuck due to your age, don't forget that most people with a bad accent in a foreign language (for example millions of non native English speakers) started way earlier than you, and it didn't save them. Others above have already touched the limits of the critical age theory. But above all: it's primarily about what you do. The fact that most people fail at getting a good pronunciation and accent (including your Spanish teacher) is not caused by age. Their failures are mostly due to not having put in the work, not having paid enough attention, or to having been taught wrong and not corrected enough. Not the age. The age is just a comfortable excuse not only for many students, but also for many lazy teachers.
From what I've observed, most CI lovers love to hate grammar learning, but are actually really in need of it. They tend to speak badly exactly because they mess up their conjugations, they are just guessing approximatively the grammar, sometimes they've learnt it wrong from deduction, they get stuck on prepositions... It leads in most cases to a huuuuuge difference between the passive and the active skills.
Once you are comfortable with all that grammar, sure, get rid of learning it, forget its terminology, and just use it. But most B1 learners are definitely not there. You are standing right under an avalanche waiting to happen at B1-B2. The avalanche of tons of new stuff mixing up with the basics. That's one of the reasons, why so many people start Spanish and learn the basics and claim "Spanish is such an easy language". And then suddenly there are really few people from B2 up.
In order to not feel like "stuck in a classroom", I'd highly recommend to learn your grammar and other such annoying stuff efficiently. Don't make the usually classroom mistake, don't run in circles and get stuck with every grammar feature for eternity. Learn it reasonably well, move on, review as needed, move on. Either with a normal coursebook, or with very efficient workbooks or equivalents (Gramatica de uso del espanol is awesome. Anaya ELE workbooks are good, and they have also vocabulario and other such topics. Kwiziq is a digital grammar drilling workbook).
I am sorry to tell you the bad news, but it is necessary to learn the grammar. There are more approaches to it, but pure CI simply doesn't work for vast majority of people. You can either complete a few workbooks and move on, or you can Anki a lot of examples as cloze deletion cards, that's a sort of self-made workbook that some people prefer and base on their CI. Or you can try something else.
But avoiding grammar, like most CI dogmatists, that leads just to waste of time and poor results. It's like playing an instrument, expecting to jump straight away to the concert masterpieces, without "wasting time" on technique and "boring" etudes.
Don't be. You have an important workload at school, of course you are tired. A few tips based on my learning even in medschool: Find what works for you. Don't force yourself to "everyday a bit", if it simply doesn't work for you. For example, I'd highly recommend one or two longer and more study oriented sessions per week, like 2-3 hours. Then a few more times doing more leisure stuff. At B1, it can already be a tv show. Or your SRS reviews. Or Kwiziq (that digital grammar workbook) can feel like a game while being very good.
Look at your schedule. Which days are more exhausting at school and which leave you more energy? What do you do on the weekends? Are you more a morning person, or an evening/night person (like most teens)? Take all that into account. Don't push yourself to 30 minutes every day, if it doesn't suit you. But push yourself to for example 5 hours a week, or 10, or whatever amount is reasonable to you.
Make a reasonable plan, adapted to your needs, and try to show discipline in sticking to it. Not by sticking to an unreasonable fantasy based on someone else's imagined ideal schedule.
In those situations, they're clearly being assholes. They decided not to teach you Spanish natively, so they cannot mock you for not being a native. They are not nice about the consequences of their decision. They are not helping. Their "jests" are not really meant as a motivator, it's their fun and your humiliation, even if they might not be fully aware of it. They don't seem to be offering any constructive help, such as regular visits with a grandpa or aunt to speak only in Spanish. So their opinion doesn't matter right now. Yours does.
So, that's why I'd really like to encourage you to find other kinds of motivation, there is so much to love about the Spanish speaking cultures!
Be kind to yourself, treat yourself more like a normal intermediate learner. You are not a failed native, you are a normal intermediate learner. You need to impress yourself, then you'll also impress the others. One day, perhaps you'll tell your family in excellent Spanish how cruel and unhelpful they've been about this. They'll probably end up with tears in their eyes, being all proud and like "of course we meant well and look how we helped you", but you'll know better. Intention and impact are not the same thing.
Well, you can start in a few years. And perhaps it will be much easier, as your Portuguese family won't be there to criticise you, they'll get to enjoy your progress and results during visits that you choose to make. And it will be your second foreign language, rather similar to Spanish.
(warning: a long post, sorry. )
Creativa wrote:However, I struggle with low confidence in my speaking abilities, and I lack discipline.
I mainly want to learn Spanish because that’s the language my family speaks (and Portuguese), but none of my siblings speak it and I really don’t want the language to die out in my family. I truly want to persevere a piece of my heritage.
Both confidence and discipline can be worked on. Confidence often gets naturally a bit easier as you improve, and further improves with experience. Discipline is a challenge, but you can find many various attitude towards it in our community. Some members achieve great results by being really discipline, they are regular in their learning, stick to the schedule, they are awesome and worth following. Some of us (including myself) have learnt to more or less circumnavigate our problems and challenges in terms of discipline, schedules, and other such stuff.
But based on my small observation of heritage learners all over the internet (as my "heritage langauges" are all three or four generations ago, I am not part of the group), I'd highly recommend you find other reasons to learn, other things to enjoy, and otheir ways to feel reward. Your heritage is good. But don't put all your eggs in one basket, when it comes to motivation.
1. Is it too late for me to become fluent? I’m 18 years old but I’ve been learning on and off since 15. I’m considered intermediate-low on a proficiency rubric which I think is B1.
Not at all. It's normal to achieve a high level in one's twenties or thirties, or even much much later. Have a look in the logs section. We have a few members well above that age (even already retired!), and they are so impressive! 18, that's very young. Don't believe the stereotypes. If 18 was too old to learn something hard like a language to a high level, it would also be too old to learn anything else, like for example getting a university degree.
2. How can I increase my confidence in speaking to other people? Specifically my family. They aren’t the easiest to impress.
-improve your Spanish. It is much easier to be confident, when your confidence is backed by real skills and knowledge. Empty confidence with no skills would be just laughable. Confidence at B1, when you already know quite a lot of stuff but are painfully aware of all that is still left to learn, that's hard.
-Don't be too harsh on yourself. You will mess up many times, you will make mistakes, you will not always speak or interact in the best way you'd want to present yourself (well, that happens even in one's native language). Don't psychologically punish yourself. That's the way to the anxiety hell, not to confidence. It's ok. You're growing. If you don't manage to speak up, or say a nice and complex sentence, or react quickly enough right now, you'll try again next time.
-Don't take impressing your family as your priority. Families are pretty much always the hardest to impress, not only with the language skills. A lot of other aspects will get into this mix, that can motivate their reactions and attack your confidence. Individual members' levels, family traumas, experiences speaking Spanish in the US (I have no doubts some of them have experienced xenophobia and other such "nice" stuff), expectations, overall attitudes towards praising or criticising young family members... Don't rely on it. Impress yourself, impress other people (you can impress us with any miniprogress in your log, if you make one in the logs section. And we are also good at cheering for each other in moments of hardship), the family will eventually get on board. At the latest in a few years, when you're a proven C2, and so at ease in Spanish that nobody sane could doubt your achievement!
3. How do I self-teach myself? I’ve been listening to YouTube videos, music, news and changed my language settings but struggling to come up with a clear and effective schedule.
I'd highly recommend getting a coursebook and following it. A B1 one, a B2 one, perhaps C1. And of course a lot of input, but not only it, or the results won't be optimal at all. I'll return to this a bit later, when reacting to your "I prefer CI" statement.
4. Will I ever reach a convincing accent? Specifically Castilian. I have a Spanish teacher who started learning in college and his American accent is very obvious but I’ve read that after the age of 12 you’re pretty much stuck with your native accent.
What do you mean by convincing? Absolutely native accent? Probably not, you are not a native. But a light neutral accent (not the usual American atrocity. Or the usual atrocity clearly identifying other nationalities either), that's definitely achievable.
You are not stuck due to your age, don't forget that most people with a bad accent in a foreign language (for example millions of non native English speakers) started way earlier than you, and it didn't save them. Others above have already touched the limits of the critical age theory. But above all: it's primarily about what you do. The fact that most people fail at getting a good pronunciation and accent (including your Spanish teacher) is not caused by age. Their failures are mostly due to not having put in the work, not having paid enough attention, or to having been taught wrong and not corrected enough. Not the age. The age is just a comfortable excuse not only for many students, but also for many lazy teachers.
One method of learning I absolutely can’t stand, is consciously learning imperfect, preterite, and other forms of grammar. It makes me feel like I’m stuck in a classroom. I definitely prefer comprehensible input.
From what I've observed, most CI lovers love to hate grammar learning, but are actually really in need of it. They tend to speak badly exactly because they mess up their conjugations, they are just guessing approximatively the grammar, sometimes they've learnt it wrong from deduction, they get stuck on prepositions... It leads in most cases to a huuuuuge difference between the passive and the active skills.
Once you are comfortable with all that grammar, sure, get rid of learning it, forget its terminology, and just use it. But most B1 learners are definitely not there. You are standing right under an avalanche waiting to happen at B1-B2. The avalanche of tons of new stuff mixing up with the basics. That's one of the reasons, why so many people start Spanish and learn the basics and claim "Spanish is such an easy language". And then suddenly there are really few people from B2 up.
In order to not feel like "stuck in a classroom", I'd highly recommend to learn your grammar and other such annoying stuff efficiently. Don't make the usually classroom mistake, don't run in circles and get stuck with every grammar feature for eternity. Learn it reasonably well, move on, review as needed, move on. Either with a normal coursebook, or with very efficient workbooks or equivalents (Gramatica de uso del espanol is awesome. Anaya ELE workbooks are good, and they have also vocabulario and other such topics. Kwiziq is a digital grammar drilling workbook).
I am sorry to tell you the bad news, but it is necessary to learn the grammar. There are more approaches to it, but pure CI simply doesn't work for vast majority of people. You can either complete a few workbooks and move on, or you can Anki a lot of examples as cloze deletion cards, that's a sort of self-made workbook that some people prefer and base on their CI. Or you can try something else.
But avoiding grammar, like most CI dogmatists, that leads just to waste of time and poor results. It's like playing an instrument, expecting to jump straight away to the concert masterpieces, without "wasting time" on technique and "boring" etudes.
I’m a high school student and I can probably dedicate 30-45 minutes to learning the language while in school, but I always find myself burnt out with school work, or a week will go by and I’ve realized I haven’t practiced at all, so I’m critical of myself.
Don't be. You have an important workload at school, of course you are tired. A few tips based on my learning even in medschool: Find what works for you. Don't force yourself to "everyday a bit", if it simply doesn't work for you. For example, I'd highly recommend one or two longer and more study oriented sessions per week, like 2-3 hours. Then a few more times doing more leisure stuff. At B1, it can already be a tv show. Or your SRS reviews. Or Kwiziq (that digital grammar workbook) can feel like a game while being very good.
Look at your schedule. Which days are more exhausting at school and which leave you more energy? What do you do on the weekends? Are you more a morning person, or an evening/night person (like most teens)? Take all that into account. Don't push yourself to 30 minutes every day, if it doesn't suit you. But push yourself to for example 5 hours a week, or 10, or whatever amount is reasonable to you.
Make a reasonable plan, adapted to your needs, and try to show discipline in sticking to it. Not by sticking to an unreasonable fantasy based on someone else's imagined ideal schedule.
And my family does tease me every time I try speaking in Spanish, criticizing my accent or accusing me of not trying hard enough , hence why I don’t want to sound like my Spanish teacher. I understand it’s mostly in jest but it’s not the best motivator and has made me feel uncomfortable speaking in front of them, so I practice by myself, like when walking my dog for instance.
In those situations, they're clearly being assholes. They decided not to teach you Spanish natively, so they cannot mock you for not being a native. They are not nice about the consequences of their decision. They are not helping. Their "jests" are not really meant as a motivator, it's their fun and your humiliation, even if they might not be fully aware of it. They don't seem to be offering any constructive help, such as regular visits with a grandpa or aunt to speak only in Spanish. So their opinion doesn't matter right now. Yours does.
So, that's why I'd really like to encourage you to find other kinds of motivation, there is so much to love about the Spanish speaking cultures!
Be kind to yourself, treat yourself more like a normal intermediate learner. You are not a failed native, you are a normal intermediate learner. You need to impress yourself, then you'll also impress the others. One day, perhaps you'll tell your family in excellent Spanish how cruel and unhelpful they've been about this. They'll probably end up with tears in their eyes, being all proud and like "of course we meant well and look how we helped you", but you'll know better. Intention and impact are not the same thing.
Learning Portuguese would be nice too, and I can already read some of it, but unfortunately it’s uncommon in most parts of the United States so it would be impractical (most of my Portuguese family lives overseas).
Well, you can start in a few years. And perhaps it will be much easier, as your Portuguese family won't be there to criticise you, they'll get to enjoy your progress and results during visits that you choose to make. And it will be your second foreign language, rather similar to Spanish.
5 x
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