PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

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Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3411
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Languages: Czech (N), English (C1), French (C2), Spanish (intermediate), German (somewhere on the path), Italian (passive advanced, active basic)
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:00 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:French (summary) in 2017

Total hours: 682hrs 56min

Breakdown
French television: 167hrs 22min
Courses: 166hrs 57min
Podcasts: 103hrs 19min
Extensive reading: 65hrs 51min
Audio courses: 63hrs 7min
Intensive reading: 40hrs 41min
Flashcards: 34hrs 52min
Vocabulary study in isolation: 21hrs 57min
Speaking: 13hrs 44min
Writing in isolation: 4hrs 36min
Audio books: 2hrs 21min


WOW!!!

You're amazing! This is a great score!
Thanks for being a constant source of inspiration to me.
I am very impressed. Above all, I admire those 167 hours of courses, something I need to push myself harder at. And 40h41min of intensive reading are beyond my imagination!
2 x

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Carmody
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Carmody » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:03 pm

Cavesa
And 40h41min of intensive reading are beyond my imagination!


Could someone please remind me exactly what the basics of intensive reading are? Many thanks.

Peter is mixing the Extensive with the Intensive which sounds especially useful.
1 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:07 pm

Carmody wrote:Could someone please remind me exactly what the basics of intensive reading are? Many thanks.

Peter is mixing the Extensive with the Intensive which sounds especially useful.

Basically a dissection of the text in question. Looking up everything, analysis of every tiny bit. Subsequently, learning it all, for example with SRS.

The first part: dissection is being used in classes too, even though it is of very limited use without the second part, which is not being done much and I'd say teachers not giving any recommendations about it are at least partially to blame.

Intensive means spending lots of time on a smaller amount of text. While extensive means the same amount of time or bigger on a huge amount of text. In short term, intensive is probably more efficient. In the long run, I am more than convinced about the qualities of extensive reading.

Peter is obviously doing well, as he combines the two.
2 x

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Carmody
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Carmody » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:33 pm

Many thanks.

What I do on a text is read it Extensively the first time through and then two more times with extensive drilling down and look up.

I just did not know if that Intensive reading included reading the text out loud. I am not sure if that is Shadowing or not?

I'm a newcomer, with everything to learn..........

Thanks.
1 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:53 pm

Carmody wrote:Many thanks.

What I do on a text is read it Extensively the first time through and then two more times with extensive drilling down and look up.

I just did not know if that Intensive reading included reading the text out loud. I am not sure if that is Shadowing or not?

I'm a newcomer, with everything to learn..........

Thanks.


I don't know whether you are being sarcastic, as you are definitely not newcomer (the limits of written communication are sometimes too tight), please stop me, if I seem to be explaining stuff too much, or if I am saying something wrong.

I wouldn't say extensive is "just reading it". The point of extensive reading in general is devouring lots and lots of the content. "Extensive" reading and "intensive drilling down and look up" is not how I think it works (please someone correct me, if I am wrong). That would both be intensive reading. You can read it as many times as you want. I definitely wouldn't call anything shorter than a book "extensive reading" truth be told, but that might be just me. I don't think reading out loud is necessary for intensive reading, but it is one of the things you can do, sure. No, shadowing is different. Shadowing, as I've understood prof. Arguelles' explanations, is repeating after audio while it is running, just a tiny bit of time after the recorded speaker.

A much clearer example of the difference between intensive and extensive reading:
Let's say you have 50 hours of time to spend.

Intensive reading: you spend half an hour on a page, as you are really thorough, look everything up, put it to anki, look up the grammar, make sure you understand the idioms exactly right. So, you get through 100 pages (perhaps less, as intensive reading may go much slower, from my experience). Your goal is to squeeze as much value out of those 100 pages as possible. The text selection is crucial for the result.

Extensive reading: let's say you read 40 pages per hour. Ok, 35, to not be called unrealistic (but 40 are realistic in a not too difficult language rather soon, from my experience). That means 1400 pages. You skip a word here and there as you either understand from the context, or it is not important. You improve, as you see everything again and again in those 4 or 5 books (or 3, if they are thick ones). You encounter the more common and more important stuff much more often than the rare stuff, and that works like a natural SRS. You see the words in various examples and contexts. You don't remember stuff after the first encounter probably, but you do after the fourth or fifth one. And should you choose one book wrong, there are others on your list to make up for it.
4 x

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Carmody
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Carmody » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:27 am

1-No, I am not being sarcastic by saying I am a beginner(or new comer to language learning.)

2-Thank you for the in depth explanation.

Note:
Any time I address myself to someone who is widely respected and with an established record of high achievement and who just happens to be Black Belt - 2nd Dan, I don't hesitate to admit that I am a Beginner/ New Comer at A1 level French with lots to learn. That for me is just a beginner.....

Thanks again.
2 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3411
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:59 am

Carmody wrote:1-No, I am not being sarcastic by saying I am a beginner(or new comer to language learning.)

2-Thank you for the in depth explanation.

Note:
Any time I address myself to someone who is widely respected and with an established record of high achievement and who just happens to be Black Belt - 2nd Dan, I don't hesitate to admit that I am a Beginner/ New Comer at A1 level French with lots to learn. That for me is just a beginner.....

Thanks again.

I'm sorry, I just prefer to ask, when I am in doubt. It helps me avoid misunderstandings. I didn't want to discourage you!

Black Belt - 2nd Dan doesn't tell you much about my language learning experience. It reveals I might be a graphomaniac. Or simply unable to keep my mouth (or laptop) shut :-D

I'm glad I could help, I hope it's useful to you. Should you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'll answer to the best of my ability, and so will others (including Peter, whose log I've been recently invading :-D )
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smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
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Some: Greek, Turkish;
Learning for Nov 6WC: Hokkien.
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby smallwhite » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:37 am

Carmody wrote:I just did not know if that Intensive reading included reading the text out loud. I am not sure if that is Shadowing or not?

I'm a newcomer, with everything to learn..........


learnanylanguage.wikia.com/ is language-learners.org's wikia (I think) and forms part of it (I think). The Techniques section explains the main techniques and jargon often mentioned on LLorg.
2 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

The real LLorg

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PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
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Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=784
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:18 pm

Cavesa wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:French (summary) in 2017

Total hours: 682hrs 56min

Breakdown
French television: 167hrs 22min
Courses: 166hrs 57min
Podcasts: 103hrs 19min
Extensive reading: 65hrs 51min
Audio courses: 63hrs 7min
Intensive reading: 40hrs 41min
Flashcards: 34hrs 52min
Vocabulary study in isolation: 21hrs 57min
Speaking: 13hrs 44min
Writing in isolation: 4hrs 36min
Audio books: 2hrs 21min


WOW!!!

You're amazing! This is a great score!
Thanks for being a constant source of inspiration to me.
I am very impressed. Above all, I admire those 167 hours of courses, something I need to push myself harder at. And 40h41min of intensive reading are beyond my imagination!


It’s always nice to have one’s efforts validated, particularly when done so emphatically by a language learner with loads of experience who works incredibly hard in life and I wonder how on earth she can take so much on! Thank you Cavesa, you are definitely an inspiration!

And thanks to you and smallwhite also for answering Carmody’s queries :) Happy 2018 everyone! Now, I’m really getting serious...
3 x

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PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2419
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Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=784
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:52 pm

...and 2018 officially begins here...
4 x


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