Do you learn only the standard dialect?

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nooj
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Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby nooj » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:06 pm

The way I see it, there are three options.

Learning the standard dialect only.
Learning a non-standard dialect only (not learning the standard at all).
Learning both.

What do you do for your languages and why?
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:42 pm

What's "standard" and what's "dialect"? If my first years of English were based on textbook British English and after that I devour content from whatever sources I can get, including Hollywood and Ireland - what is that? One dialect, two or even more? I never get these topics...
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby iguanamon » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:29 pm

Besides the question of language vs dialect, there are few resources available for learning dialects. Quebec French, as most French-speakers will tell you is spoken a bit differently from Standard French but Assimil only has a "de poche" course. Then there is the "are you mocking me" concern. For example, an obvious outsider attempting to speak Caribbean English, is offensive to most people here. Or perhaps a native English-speaker from outside Ireland trying to speak Irish-English.

In my languages, Spanish has some variation. My accent and usage tends toward Puerto Rican because of proximity and exposure. I had difficulty years ago with Castillian, but with more exposure, that's not a problem now. My biggest problem in Spanish Dialects is Rioplatense, again because of lack of exposure.

With Portuguese, I set out purposely to familiarize myself with Iberian/African Portuguese at the beginning. I concentrate on Brazilian usage and accent but being familiar with Iberian is enough to where I can understand the other half of the conversation.

It's never been a problem for Portuguese people to understand my Brazilian tinged Portuguese or for Spaniards to understand my Puerto Rican tinged Spanish. I would never ask for a "jugo de china" in a Madrid restaurant or "la estación de guaguas" in Mexico City. It's enough (and I feel, essential) in my experience, at least with pluri-centric languages, to be familiar with the other varieties that may be encountered. As I've said, it's difficult to even find instruction on how to learn them, but if I know the standard, I can pick up on the differences through reading/listening or with a familiarization guide.

With Ladino, there is some variation between Salonican and Turkish Ladino and also the northern varieites in the Balkans. Again, familiarization is the key.

Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles French Creole, are both Creoles, similar enough to be mutually intelligible to a large extent between native-speakers but different enough to have to be learned separately as separate languages for learners.

I know from reading the forum that Standard German, Bavarian/Austrian and Swiss German can be quite different. I'll leave that to a German-speaker.
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:52 pm

It is difficult to provide an answer to the OP’s question without first having defined the terms.

There seems to be an unresolved debate amongst linguists as to what constitutes a language and what constitutes a dialect. Although the Oxford English Dictionary defines the word dialect as “a particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group”, this does not help resolve the issue. Nevertheless, I will side with jeff_lindqvist on this one; that is, it is probably almost impossible to avoid being influenced by different variants of a given language, particularly as one progresses from the Beginner’s level through the Intermediate and on to the Advanced levels.

Even at the Beginner’s level, where most language-learning materials present what the authors believe to be a “standard” version of a language, there are opportunities to come in contact with other variants. As one progresses to the Intermediate and Advanced levels, many authors of language-learning materials deliberately include “non-standard” elements of the language in the well-founded belief that to do otherwise would be a disservice to the student. Ultimately, as one’s contact with the target language’s communications media and native (or non-native) speakers increases, one will be exposed to greater varieties in the language. Depending on a language’s regional and social variants and one’s individual exposure to these differences, one may (or may not) expand one’s knowledge of the language beyond the “standard” form.

As a purely personal answer to the question, I would prefer to delve into virtually all of the variants of a given language. However, I am aware that, as a practical matter, this is not always feasible. With the exception of French and German, I have been unable to devote the resources necessary to getting beyond the Lower-Intermediate levels; so, I’m stuck with the “standard” version of most of my chosen languages... and probably an increasingly out-of-date one at that!

EDITED:
Typos, of course.
Last edited by Speakeasy on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby tastyonions » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:23 pm

Is "standard" Portuguese from Portugal (country of origin) or Brazil (by far more populous)? How about "standard" Spanish (similar question)?

I do learn a relatively widespread or "radio-friendly" pronunciation for the country or region that I choose as a focus. But dialect is much more than just pronunciation. And I don't have a particular reason or desire to use certain identifiably regional words, expressions, or grammatical features with the same frequency as an imagined "typical" Chilango or Paulista or Marseillais would.
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby Iversen » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:11 pm

I'm fairly sure that if any language of mine has got dialects the thing I'm speaking isn't one of the approved ones - most likely it won't even be a decent compromise (although I do adopt elements from all variants I see or hear).

And the things I have tried to learn which some would consider dialects (like Scots and Low German) are languages in my book, and I have treated them as such. Actually you would have to study dialects as true complete languages if you want to be active in them and don't live in an appropriate location, but I have not really got that kind of ambitions - not even about Danish dialects. I have a couple of times written in "Synnejysk" (Southern Jutish, which is a dialect of Danish), but to do so I first read at least one full issue of the magazine of the Southern Jutlish association ("Æ Blaj"), which can be found on the internet. Then I have the sound of that dialect ringing in my head and I can try to follow along and do a reasonable travesty - but no, I do not really speak even that dialect.

... yet.
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:28 pm

The question of learning dialects need not be viewed from the perspective of foreign language acquisition alone. Like most native-English-speaking adults who have travelled extensively through the Anglosphere, I have not experienced any significant difficulties understanding the “locals” when it comes to matters of vocabulary or grammar. Nevertheless, despite our shared language, I have experienced difficulties in understanding the “locals” owing primarily to matters of pronunciation and, to a much lesser extent, to matters of colloquial usage; they speak with an atrocious accent, whereas I speak Standard English.

In my travels, I noticed that, the greater the regional and social differences between the “local received speech” and my own exemplary variant of Canadian English, the greater the difficulties I had understanding the locals. For example, when travelling throughout the American Mid-West (at times) I would require the assistance of an office employee, or of a plant supervisor, to act as an interpreter when communicating with a production employee. I could handle the broad differences in regional pronunciation, but the addition of the very local regional pronunciation and the social/educational differences created a barrier*. I have had similar experiences in Australia, the Caribbean Islands, and the United Kingdom. As I am quite attuned to Québécois French, I have not experienced this phenonmenon in Québec; however, I have experienced it in both France and Germany.

I would assume that, following a couple of weeks’ acclimatisation*, I would become attuned to the differences in pronunciation. Nonetheless, even as an Anglophone, I would not go out of my way to learn all of the different English dialects. Why should I bother trying?

Take a quick look at the Wikipedia article “List of Dialects of English” and picture yourselves conversing with any of the groups for which a dialect has been listed and, having done so, add a level of social separation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language#Canada

Or, better still, improve your own English Pronuciation ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WvIwkL8oLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2xQFKwmLoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emDsNNMKkhg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvONJXJUO4

EDITED:
Formatting.
Additional links.
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nooj
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby nooj » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:02 am

tastyonions wrote:Is "standard" Portuguese from Portugal (country of origin) or Brazil (by far more populous)? How about "standard" Spanish (similar question)?
I don't think you can talk about one standard dialect for all of Portuguese, but there is certainly one standard national dialect for both countries. In Portugal, the standard dialect is probably that based around Lisbon, whereas you know the Azores dialect is...not standard.
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby Xenops » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:22 am

tastyonions wrote:Is "standard" Portuguese from Portugal (country of origin) or Brazil (by far more populous)? How about "standard" Spanish (similar question)?

I do learn a relatively widespread or "radio-friendly" pronunciation for the country or region that I choose as a focus. But dialect is much more than just pronunciation. And I don't have a particular reason or desire to use certain identifiably regional words, expressions, or grammatical features with the same frequency as an imagined "typical" Chilango or Paulista or Marseillais would.


I would imagine, according to the Iberian Spanish, that they have the "standard" Spanish. ;) To my knowledge, this is not the case in Mexico, Central America or South America, or else each country has what they deem as "standard", which is different from the "standard" next door. I have been trained mainly in Mexican Spanish, and I can watch a dubbed Pokemon episode and understand 70-80% of the dialogue; give me a show in Iberian Spanish, and I might catch a word or two. But I imagine this would improve if I had more exposure (and subtitles for a while).
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Re: Do you learn only the standard dialect?

Postby aokoye » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:50 am

All languages have dialects and even something like, "American English" is a misnomer because well, what dialect of American English are you talking about? See this rather, interestingly organized, useful website.

That said in terms of German, I don't go out of my way to study anything other Hochdeutsch. If I was living long term in Germany, or any other country or area where the primary language wasn't English, I would default to studying the primary dialect that is spoken there. If I studied a language like Arabic this would be more of an issue.

edit: I suspect the smallest of languages that are spoken single very remote areas by small numbers of speakers might not have dialects but that's not really what we're talking about...
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