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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:28 pm

05 April 2007 at 10:45pm
"At 5, I do not feel burdened. I also find that there's plenty of time to use these languages (my laziness is another story). I do feel that seven might be the right number. Maybe I'm mistaken.

I am beginning more and more to lean toward Spanish and Japanese rather than Russian and Portuguese. The first one shouldn't be a problem. The second ahem I'm not sure but it's doable. I'd love to learn Japanese. The question is should I make a "sensible choice" and go for the other two as I could acquire them more easily. I have worked out a few tables covering general usefulness questions and a few personal ones and Japanese comes out on top over both Portuguese and Russian. I do feel that Japanese would put a definite stop on any further expansion."

Hmmm....
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:19 pm

1 x 22 minute cartoon episode = 1,500-3,000 words.

Occasionally I need to remind myself that 100 hours of such material is the equivalent of a War and Peace-sized tome (587,287 words).

WWII documentary: 96/96
2017 Ru = 100 hours

"Когда тебе тяжело, ты вспомни про мою судьбу, и тебе будет легче... "

Епистиния Степанова

I ran into this article and I remembered Stepanova's words:

https://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01 ... -the-page/
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:34 am

L2>L3

"Language proficiency. When a non-native language is closer to the TL than to the L1, comprehension can be facilitated by focusing on the similarities between the L2 and L3. For the productive aspects of L3 learning, however, it seems very likely that only a high level of proficiency in a similar L2 is really useful. The inherent risks of confusion between related languages are more easily actualized if the learner has not successfully internalized grammatical rules and semantic properties in the L2.

Individual learner characteristics. While some learners appear to have blinders on, in that they do not take notice of even obvious cross-linguistic similarities, others are too prone to assuming similarities where they do not exist. Teaching needs to strike a balance between encouraging learners to make use of actual similarities and preventing exaggerated reliance on merely assumed similarities (cf. Haastrup, 1991, p. 341)

Praxis: Research on Adult L3 Instruction

"In an effort to promote Portuguese language courses in American colleges and universities, Holton (1954) provided an overview of similarities between Spanish and Portuguese, claiming that learners with a good command of Spanish could acquire a reading facility in Portuguese in a very short time and with minimum effort. As he put it, “It would seem to be a valuable piece of intellectual merchandise obtained at a wonderful bargain price” (p. 447). Jensen (1989) and Jordan (1991) suggested that the high degree of mutual intelligibility between Portuguese and Spanish could be used in teaching Portuguese to students who had Spanish as a second language. Jensen (1989) administered a series of listening proficiency tests in Spanish to Portuguese speakers, and tests in Portuguese to Spanish speakers, and found that Portuguese was 60 percent intelligible to Spanish speakers and that Spanish was 50 percent intelligible to Portuguese speakers. Jordan (1991) argued for the use of contrastive analysis techniques in teaching Portuguese to speakers of Spanish, and listed the pedagogical benefits and risks of using this technique for teaching closely related languages. Based on the principle that there is a high degree of mutual intelligibility between closely related languages, such as Spanish and Portuguese, Gribble (1987) created a Bulgarian course for Russian speakers and Townsend (1995) a Czech course for Russian speakers. The efficacy of these courses, which are highly contrastive in nature, has not been measured; we note them here as they do, at least implicitly, draw upon the assumption of mutual intelligibility and lexical and linguistic transfer between closely related languages.

A notably different view was offered by Teixeira-Leal Tarquinio (1977), who recommended that, for English-speaking students at American universities, it is unsound to take both Spanish and Portuguese concurrently, pointing to the inter- ference of Spanish, especially in beginning Portuguese classes. She warned that this practice could lead to a hybrid product of “espanguês.” Teixeira-Leal Tarquinio provided a list of specific phonological, morphological, and syntactical items whose transfer may cause difficulties for these students, claiming that one of the two languages must be mastered before beginning to learn the other. It needs to be noted that the author based her view on observations of students in American universities learning Portuguese and Spanish concurrently. This view seems to support claims about the importance of L2 proficiency in L3 acquisition. What needs to be determined in future research is the effect of the proximity of Spanish and Portuguese, or any other closely related languages, on proficiency level and order of acquisition.

In the US, the primary locus of deliberate L3 instruction has been the lan- guage training institutes of the USG. Over the past 15 years, rapidly changing and emerging government language requirements, coupled with the assumption that significant time savings could be achieved in L3 training courses, have led to courses in Serbian/Croatian for Russian, Polish, and Czech second language learners; Tausug for Tagalog speakers; Malaysian for Bahasa Indonesian speakers; Portuguese for Spanish speakers; Kazakh, Kyrgyz, and Georgian for Russian speakers; Haitian Creole for French Speakers; and several courses in one or another Arabic vernacular for speakers of Modern Standard Arabic.

Several courses at the Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center (DLI) have retrained speakers of one language in another closely related lan-guage: Czech L2 speakers in Serbian/Croatian (Corin, 1994), French speakers in Haitian Creole, and Russian, Polish, and Czech speakers in Serbian/Croatian. This type of instruction, in which the target language and the learners’previously known languages are closely related, is called conversion. Corin (1994) reported on a Serbian/Croatian conversion course at the DLI that retrained 40 Czech linguists in Serbian/Croatian in a 3-month period. Based on the outcomes of the three-month course reported on the ILR scale (median oral proficiency score = Level 2; mode = Level 1+), Corin concluded that conversion works, that L2 proficiency may influence L3 gains, and that learner style interacted with the teaching materials and methods (global learners performed better). There were no tradi- tional grammars; the learners had to derive rules for the target language from their L2s. Kulman and Tetrault (1993) reviewed USG L3 courses and proposed Rapid Survey courses for closely related languages, for example, a Ukrainian course for Russian speakers. According to Kulman and Tetrault, such courses would make use of the phonologies, morphologies, and syntaxes of the L2 and TL, as well as contrastive analysis, to enable L3 learners to predict parallel and divergent structures in languages."

The Handbook of Language Teaching
edited by Michael H. Long, Catherine J. Doughty

Thanks to IronMike for the lead.
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:00 am

Fsi learning expectations

"The goal of language training for FSI students is typically General Professional Proficiency in Speaking and Reading (3/3+). This level is approximately equivalent to "Superior" on the scale used by the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages. On the CEFR scale that's a C1.

Category I languages (ILR 3)

575-600 class hours (450 hours) + around 300 full hours for homework (based on FSI sources) = 750 hours. People usually forget that FSI students work face to face with a native speaking instructor and that 600 x $30 = $18,000.

French DALF guidelines

DALF C1 : 790 hours from Beginner level
DALF C2 900 hours minimum (refers to teaching hours/lessons ie 45 mins).

Goethe numbers are similar...

Cambridge C1 English 700-800 guided hours
C2 1200 guided hours.

800 x 45 mins = 600 hours
With homework (counted as 60 mins) that's 900 hours minimum for a reasonable chance to pass a C1 exam. According to De Jong C1 may require between 1520 - 4490 cumulative hours of study. De Jong's estimates for English learners:

Total cumulative number of hours

A1 95 - 480
A2 190 - 770
B1 380 - 1386
B2 760 - 2495
C1 1520 - 4490

"Fast learners learn in an ideal scenario. They take benefit from a number of individual or context-related traits, for example they are highly motivated and their first language is not too distant from English."

The C-level European language examinations always include a written component. Based on a comparison with FSI information, an English speakershould plan for a minimum of 150 hours of productive writing practice for a Cat I language.
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:43 am

Individual differences in cognitive ability and L2 speech perception

Joan C. Mora
Universitat de Barcelona

Pronunciation often is a difficult skill and a learning challenge for L2 learners, most learners struggle with pronunciation at
most levels of L2 competence.

Learners vary greatly in the amount of foreign accent they exhibit when speaking an L2. We still don’t fully understand the causes of this inter-learner variation.

There is an important social dimension to speaking an L2 with a strong foreign accent: integration, self-confidence, …

Factors affecting L2 phonological development

- L1 background
- Age of Onset of L2 learning
- L2 exposure (Length of Residence)
- Frequency/amount of L1/L2 use

The earlier the start the better for L2 phonology
quality and quantity of L2 input received

Very large inter-subject variation even in the LAB context where INPUT and EXPOSURE factors are tightly controlled in the experimental design.

Individual factors:
- Motivation
- Personality (extroversion, introversion)
- Musicality (singing and musical ability)
- Sound processing skills (auditory acuity, frequency discrimination)
- Imitation skills (aptitude for oral mimicry)
- Cognitive skills (working memory, attention, inhibition)
- …..

Phonological short-term memory (PM)

Responsible for encoding of phonological elements and their serial order and storing them in LTM.

Necessary for language processing
Individuals vary in their PM capacity

- PM stores auditory-verbal information temporarily
Decaying auditory traces are refreshed through sub-vocal articulatory rehearsal mechanism
Responsible for encoding of phonological elements and their serial order and storing them in LTM.

> Individuals vary in their PM capacity
> necessary for language processing
- Capacity: few secs. /7 auditory representations

Learners with larger PM capacity may be more efficient in the processing of L2 sounds:

- Speech segmentation.
- Phonological and lexical encoding.
- Cross-language speech perception: L1-L2 sound differences.
- Perception of acoustic differences between contrasting L2 sounds

Acoustic memory (AM)
AM is a memory storage for acoustic information listeners use to encode phonological units.

It is involved in the auditory processing of acoustic-phonetic properties of speech sounds before phonological encoding

within-category acoustic differences for L2 sounds
> cross-language differences between similar sounds
> L2-specific weighting of phonetic cues (e.g. temporal
and spectral information in vowels or voicing in
consonants):
- underlying phonetic properties of speech sounds

Phonological attention control:
A person’s ability to shift focus of attention from one attention-directing function of speech (e.g.: duration) to another (e.g. voice quality)

L2 use is a complex cognitive task that requires the foregrounding and backgrounding of linguistic information.
> Language as an attention-directing system.
> Linguistic skill as rapid & flexible control over the attention-directing functions of language.

Dimension 1: segmental duration (quantity)
Duration is used in English to encode voicing in wordfinal
obstruents and at the same time is secondary to
identifying vowel quality distinctions

Dimesion 2: voice quality
Pitch is very important in speech. Besides identifying
talkers on the basis of sex and age, pitch changes are
used linguistically to convey meaning, as with intonation.

Inhibitory control:
A person’s ability to bring to the background stimuli
(visual, auditory) or stimuli features (colour, shape) that
are irrelevant to the mental process at hand.

Inhibition in language and speech:
- Bilingual language control: e.g. L1/L2
- Inhibition of the language not in use
- Lexical selection in word retrieval processes
- inhibition as the suppression of activation: higher inhibition >
harder to activate (harder to overcome suppression)
- Cue-weighting in L1/L2 speech processing
- Focusing attention on a cue inhibits another:
e.g. V Duration is inhibited when processing V quality

Amount of inhibition is related to proficiency level
- Activation HIGH in L1 > strong inhibition
- Activation LOW in L2 (if proficiency is LOW) > little inhibition

Inhibition and L2 phonological acquisition
(Lev-Ari & Peperkamp, 2013; Darcy, Mora & Daidone, 2013; Mora & Darcy, 2013)
Inhibition
> Stronger inhibitory skill might result in better inhibition of the language not in use, and to more
efficient phonological processing when switching between speech dimensions or languages.
> Learners with better inhibitory control may be more efficient at inhibiting their L1 phonetics and phonology
when speaking their L2
> more accurate, less foreign-accented speech

https://joancmora.weebly.com/uploads/1/ ... _notes.pdf
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:02 am

Russian: 300 hours (TV and audiobooks) in 2017. That's probably 3x the amount of Russian I've done since 2007. I feel like I just added a new patio deck. The wood is still raw, but the thing is serviceable. Today I was able to follow Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall in Portuguese but I will leave this audiobook for 2018. Ensaio sobre a Cegueira has been on my phone for a while and I would occasionally glance at the title while scrolling through the files. Recently I realised that in my mind this word was beginning to engrain itself as something that rhymes with Italian segheria. To cut the story short, I will only be listening to Portuguese in the first half of 2018.

RU
PORT
FRA
ITA
GER
ESP
etc.

I got bored just writing these abbreviations. I now know better than to plan these things too far in advance. In any case, I can now enjoy advanced content in all of these languages.
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:19 am

"I hate Russian authors. Every time I've ever tried to read a book by a Russian author, I've failed miserably. Crime and Punishment? I hadn't committed any crime, but it sure felt like Dostoevsky was punishing me. Dr. Zhivago? Boris Pasternak should've changed his name to Boring Pasternak. Lolita? Vladimir Nabokov was writing in English about a French guy driving around the United States, and it was still too Russian for me. So it was with a heavy heart that I decided to read Anna Karenina, seemingly the longest book ever written, in honor of Russian author Leo Tolstoy's 185th birthday, which was this month (or last month, I guess). But I did it, and I did it for you, because this is "Culling The Classics"...

Considered by many, including Time and the late American author William Faulkner, to be the greatest novel ever written; Goodreads rating of 3.98; dozens of film and television adaptations (as well as a science fiction retelling) and countless references to the book throughout world literature and popular culture.

You'll Love It
It's entirely possible that this is the most brilliant, the most complete, and the most perfect novel ever written. Authors, critics, and readers have praised Tolstoy for close to a century and a half for the way he was able to combine so many different human elements in such a powerful and compelling way...

You'll Loathe It
But holy hell is this book long. The version I read is 817 pages, though that doesn't include the Introduction, the List of Principal Characters, and the seemingly endless Notes section. And to make things as difficult as humanly possible, this book takes place in Russia, so not only does everyone have about 15 different names, each of which is used only in very particular situations, but all of these names sound exactly the same. There are at least three different Annas, four Alexei/Alexanders, a Nikolaevna and a Mikhailovna (as well as two Nikolais), and a host of V names—Vronsky, Varya Chirkov (also called Varvara), Varvara Andreevna (also called Varenka), Vasenka Veslovsky (also called Vaska and Vassily), Elizaveta Fyodorovna Tverskoy, Lydia Ivanona, Nikolai Ivanovich Sviyahsky, Sergei Ivanovich Koznyshev, Fyodor Vassilyevich Katavasov, and Yashvin. And these are just the main characters. Once you add in all of the soldiers/officers, counts/countesses, princes/princesses, footmen, stewards, maids, nurses, villagers, coachmen, and sundry other minor characters, it becomes next to impossible to keep track of everyone. I needed three bookmarks to read this novel: one for the page I was on, one for the List of Principal Characters so I could refer back to it constantly, and one for the Notes, of which there are over 225 (not including the various translation notes at the bottom of many pages, since the book was originally written with Russian, French and English dialogue).

If you can handle the length of the read, the complexity of the character relationships, and the breadth and depth of the political and social issues being discussed, there's of course the added bonus of this being a Russian novel, which means that it's flowery and dense and often boring as all get out. Sometimes Tolstoy just decides to spend several pages discussing optimal methods for plowing a wheat field. At other times he goes into nauseating detail on the habits of Russians living abroad. We spends several chapters simply waiting for a man to die. And he never makes a point without repeating it at least three times...

Read It Or Leave It?
And yet somehow, somehow, I finished this book. Many editions of Crime and Punishment are under 500 pages. Lolita is under 400. Anna Karenina, on the other hand, weighs in at close to 850 pages, but I just had to finish it. And it wasn't even because I had to know what happened at the end; the book has one of the most-spoiled endings in classical literature... I mostly wanted to experience for myself the completion of these two emotional journeys, Anna's and Levin's, and be with these characters as they made the major and minor decisions that decided their respective fates. It isn't a particularly plot-heavy book, so it doesn't specifically keep you from putting it down in that way, but it creates such a complete world that it's hard to leave it except at the designated station: the end of the book. So much of Anna Karenina is open ended, but so is life, and everything that is tied up by the novel's conclusion is done so only through specific choices made by the characters to improve/react to their situations...

Final Verdict
If you have the patience, the capacity, the ability to remember the names of people you've only met once, you should absolutely read this book. I'm not willing to say that Anna Karenina is the greatest novel ever written, but it certainly isn't very far off. The broad strokes of the story are incredibly compelling, but it's the characters, the complexity, and the richness of this 19th-century socialscape that make it, as Dostoyevsky is alleged to have said, "flawless as a work of art." But he was Russian, so what does he know?"

https://litreactor.com/columns/culling- ... a-karenina

The 10 Greatest Books of All Time
http://content.time.com/time/arts/artic ... 73,00.html

The Greatest Books of All Time, as Voted by 125 Famous Authors

Top Ten Authors by Points Earned
1. Leo Tolstoy – 327

2. William Shakespeare – 293

3. James Joyce – 194

4. Vladimir Nabokov – 190

5. Fyodor Dostoevsky – 177

6. William Faulkner – 173

7. Charles Dickens – 168

8. Anton Checkhov – 165

9. Gustave Flaubert – 163

10. Jane Austen – 161

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainme ... rs/252209/
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby reineke » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:02 am

I thought I already posted this here:

The Greatest Books

"This list is generated from 114 "best of" book lists from a variety of great sources. An algorithm is used to create a master list based on how many lists a particular book appears on. Some lists count more than others. I generally trust "best of all time" lists voted by authors and experts over user-generated lists. On the lists that are actually ranked, the book that is 1st counts a lot more than the book that's 100th."

1 . Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes
2 . In Search of Lost Time by Marcel Proust
etc.


The Greatest Nonfiction Books
1 . Confessions by Augustine
2 . Essays by Michel de Montaigne
3 . The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli
5 . On the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
12 . The Histories of Herodotus by Herodotus
16 . Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
18 . The History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
19 . The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money by John Maynard Keynes
23 . Das Kapital by Karl Marx
31 . Speak, Memory by Vladimir Nabokov
45 . The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith

etc.

The site has a search function:

Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

The 324th greatest fiction book of all time

This book is on the following lists:
- 2nd on The Novel 100: A Ranking of the Greatest Novels of All Time (The Novel 100)
- 3rd on The Top 10: The Greatest Books of All Time (The Top 10 (Book))
- 3rd on For The Love of Books (For The Love of Books)
- 6th on Biblioteca (Argentina)
- 7th on The Celebrity Reading List (Gardiner Public Library)
- 7th on El Pais Favorite Books of 100 Spanish Authors (El Pais)


The Temple of the Golden Pavilion by Yukio Mishima

The 260th greatest fiction book of all time

etc. Anyway, a cool resource.

http://thegreatestbooks.org
Last edited by reineke on Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby Xmmm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:44 am

reineke wrote:
The Greatest Books of All Time, as Voted by 125 Famous Authors

Top Ten Authors by Points Earned
1. Leo Tolstoy – 327

2. William Shakespeare – 293

3. James Joyce – 194

4. Vladimir Nabokov – 190

5. Fyodor Dostoevsky – 177

6. William Faulkner – 173

7. Charles Dickens – 168

8. Anton Checkhov – 165

9. Gustave Flaubert – 163

10. Jane Austen – 161


Let's see how many things are wrong with this list:

1. There is only one French author ... and amazingly, it's not Dumas. Le Comte de Monte Cristo is probably the single best novel ever written, so this is a curious oversight. If people want to be pretentious snobs and pretend like Dumas doesn't exist, what about Camus? Flaubert is better? Phooey.

2. The only American author to make the list is Faulkner. Hawthorne and Melville are both better. The Scarlet Letter and Moby Dick are the classic choices for "The Great American Novel." Has anyone ever finished a book by Faulkner? Also, no sign of Mark Twain!

3. I've read most major Russian authors in translation and Tolstoy > Nabokov > Dostoevsky is a joke. There are plenty of Russian natives on this board. What do you think, guys? I would rate Russian authors as:

Dostoevsky > Bulgakov > Nabokov > Pelevin > Chekhov > Tolstoy > Solzhenitsyn (fiction only, he's the best at non-fiction)

4. James Joyce is always highly praised, but he is little read. We should stop pretending. A great author that nobody reads is not a great author, but people are afraid to say the emperor has no clothes.

5. This list is so euro-centric! Where is Yukio Mishima, for crying out loud? I'm still recovering from reading The Sea of Fertility tetralogy 34 years ago!


edited for many typos
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Re: Team Me: Foxing around

Postby Xmmm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:14 am

reineke wrote:I thought I already posted this here:

The Greatest Books

"This list is generated from 114 "best of" book lists from a variety of great sources. An algorithm is used to create a master list based on how many lists a particular book appears on. Some lists count more than others. I generally trust "best of all time" lists voted by authors and experts over user-generated lists. On the lists that are actually ranked, the book that is 1st counts a lot more than the book that's 100th."

1 . Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes
2 . In Search of Lost Time by Marcel Proust
etc.


The Greatest Nonfiction Books
1 . Confessions by Augustine
2 . Essays by Michel de Montaigne
3 . The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli
5 . On the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
12 . The Histories of Herodotus by Herodotus
16 . Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
18 . The History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides
19 . The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money by John Maynard Keynes
23 . Das Kapital by Karl Marx
31 . Speak, Memory by Vladimir Nabokov
45 . The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith

etc. Anyway, a cool resource.


In contrast to the utterly bogus list I attacked in my other post, this list looks pretty good. Where is the resource, exactly? I didn't see a link ...
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