Overscore's log: srpski

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vonPeterhof
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:27 am

overscore wrote:I had no idea Walloon is a Romance language. For a long time I had thought it's a dialect of Dutch.
Now I'm even more confused about the demographic and political situation in Belgium.
I had always heard of the inter-community disputes in Belgium framed as "Flanders vs. Wallonia" so Walloon being Romance always seemed natural to me. What did surprise me some years ago was that the predominately French-speaking Brussels technically isn't part of Wallonia, and that its historical dialect is Germanic rather than Romance. Several Wikipedias have whole articles on how Brussels turned into a French-speaking city. And that's not even getting into the intricacies of the administrative divisions and the distinctions between the Walloon region and the French Community of Belgium...

overscore wrote:Today I learned there's a verbal inflection for situations where you need to express "accidentally did so-and-so". So here's how it works. first you pick the verb, let's say 食う (to eat). then you put it in the "did do" tense thingy: 食って. then you add しまう conjugated in the correct tense: しまった. then you paste these two together and get the final logical product: 食ってしまった. fuse the sounds around a little bit and you get spoken japanese: 食っちまった (I accidentally ate it).
You could also technically truncate it even further into 食っちゃった, although this form may sound a bit odd, since -ちゃった is perceived as a more effeminate and/or childish form of -ちまった, while 食う is already a more vulgar and masculine variant of 食べる (at least when applied to humans eating, as opposed to animals).

Also, I wouldn't really call the て form a tense, since its primary function is to link the verb to another verb in any tense. It can have the implication that the action it refers to takes place prior to the one referred to by the following verb, but it could just as well mean that the two actions were simultaneous. And of course there are cases where the second verb is only implied, as well as some more idiosyncratic ones: less than a week ago I watched the first episode of the currently airing anime アニメガタリズ, where a character with stereotypical お嬢様 (upper class girl) mannerisms used the て form for asking questions (少しよろしくて? or 何か問題でもあって?).

overscore wrote:The bulk of the inventory in Japanese looks like Wu Chinese.
There are some features of Sino-Japanese vocabulary that make them appear like Wu Chinese, like the preservation of the voiced consonants and the [nʲ]/[ɲ] in the beginning of the syllables, other widespread features aren't present in modern Wu, most notably the syllable-final -t and -k, reflected in Japanese as -つ/ち and -く/き, respectively (the syllables ending in -p ended up turning into long vowel syllables due to Japanese sound shifts: Vpu -> Vfu -> Vu -> [ō, ū, yō or yū, depending on the historical vowel represented by V]). A lot of Sino-Japanese words look more like Min words than Wu ones, though this may have to do with Min varieties being relatively more conservative than any direct contacts with Japan.
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:50 am

vonPeterhof wrote:
overscore wrote:I had no idea Walloon is a Romance language. For a long time I had thought it's a dialect of Dutch.
Now I'm even more confused about the demographic and political situation in Belgium.
I had always heard of the inter-community disputes in Belgium framed as "Flanders vs. Wallonia" so Walloon being Romance always seemed natural to me. What did surprise me some years ago was that the predominately French-speaking Brussels technically isn't part of Wallonia, and that its historical dialect is Germanic rather than Romance. Several Wikipedias have whole articles on how Brussels turned into a French-speaking city. And that's not even getting into the intricacies of the administrative divisions and the distinctions between the Walloon region and the French Community of Belgium...


I'm from Wallonia and I can explain a bit:

Belgium has differnt communities, regions:

Brussels Capital
Flanders
Wallonia

Flanders
Flemish is a collection of Dutch dialects, exactly like the Netherlands has a collection of Dutch dialects. Standard Dutch is the same in both coutnries, with some differences, but it's the local versions which are so diverse for example the pronunciation. In Flanders, they speak Flemish.

Wallonia
Wallonia = French-speaking community. But in one part it's bilingual french and german, which is the German Community near Germany and which was in germany until 1919 after the First World war.

Now, everyone speak French, exactly as in france except some Belgicisms like with the numbers, some verbs, vocabulary.

Walloon, or Wallonian is an Oïl language, like French, Picard and others. These are the northern languages of the French speaking areas. In Wallonia, very, very few people can speak Wallonian, or the other small Oïl languages, but 3 generations ago it was different. french has replaced them.

In the southern French areas the langauges are the Oc ones, like in Provence etc.

Brussels capital
This is officially bilingual french and Dutch. In the reality, it's more French than Dutch speaking, but it's very international.

When I lived in Belgium (age 0-23, I'm 25 now) I met people from the different communities, but our region is completely French speaking, so those poeple had to speak French. You can get all information in French or Dutch for example from the government or services, this is the law, but the German speakers can be forgotten, which I think is bad. Often, people use English to communicate between Flemish and French speakers because it's neutral. Many Flemish hate the Wallons and vice versa.

Wallonian people don't feel French, and Flemish don't feel Dutch. Of course in wallonia people watch French TV all the time and when we speak, the French don't know that we are belgian, except for some words, or except the people who are very poor or speak a more regional dialect. I can't speak a regional dialect. The Brussels accent is different, and when the Flemish speak French they've got a different accent, so often the French people think of this when they think of belgians, and that we are countryside idiots hahaha.
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:38 pm

vogeltje wrote:Wallonia = French-speaking community. But in one part it's bilingual french and german, which is the German Community near Germany and which was in germany until 1919 after the First World war.

But that's the thing, the explanation I got is that Wallonia is not exactly the same as the French Community, since the latter excludes the German Community while also including Brussels, which is shared between the French and Flemish Communities. From what I've read the institutions of the Communities and the Regions theoretically have different areas of responsibility, although in practice the Flemish Region and Community have completely merged their institutions (with special provisions for Brussels), while the French Community and the Walloon Region retain separate governments and parliaments, albeit with overlapping memberships. Is this understanding outdated, or does it just not have any strong implications in practice?

Edit: apologies to Overscore for hijacking the log..
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby tarvos » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:14 pm

Basically the French part of Brussels has a separate government from Wallonia. As Brussels is administered separately from Wallonia, these don't mix. In Flanders they have been integrated yes. The seat is in Brussels.
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby overscore » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:42 pm

Peterhof, don't worry, free talk is more than welcome in my log. Just keep in mind I might post unrelated updates to what's going on.
vogeltje wrote:The Brussels accent is different, and when the Flemish speak French they've got a different accent, so often the French people think of this when they think of belgians, and that we are countryside idiots hahaha.

As Quebecer I can relate well to that. Even here you couldn't speak dialect in official positions until very recently, but it used to be the Clergy had control of virtually everything in society.
So from the outside everything sounds fairly normal and educated, then when French people come over they discover we all speak like medieval lumberjacks with no manners (no Vousvoiement). :lol:
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby overscore » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:07 am

JP

寄生獣第1巻 page 120/224.
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby overscore » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:57 pm

寄生獣第1巻 page 151/224.

Today did not go so well. I had lots of doubts like "why do I bother with this" and just had to kept busy with stuff to keep the negativity away. Today and yesterday were the first difficult days in a while. I also picked up "ほど", "ながら" bits of grammar, and a few beginner kanji I should have known like 頭,首.
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:52 am

vonPeterhof wrote:
vogeltje wrote:Wallonia = French-speaking community. But in one part it's bilingual french and german, which is the German Community near Germany and which was in germany until 1919 after the First World war.

But that's the thing, the explanation I got is that Wallonia is not exactly the same as the French Community, since the latter excludes the German Community while also including Brussels, which is shared between the French and Flemish Communities. From what I've read the institutions of the Communities and the Regions theoretically have different areas of responsibility, although in practice the Flemish Region and Community have completely merged their institutions (with special provisions for Brussels), while the French Community and the Walloon Region retain separate governments and parliaments, albeit with overlapping memberships. Is this understanding outdated, or does it just not have any strong implications in practice?

Edit: apologies to Overscore for hijacking the log..


personnaly I don't like the name 'the French community' because we are not French, and French was not the language of all the people until about my grand-parents generation, but they spoke Wallon, Picard etc etc the other historical smaller Oïl languages. And like you said as well, it excludes the German speakers, who are in the Deutschsprachiger Gemeinschaft. But many, or most Belgians don't know that there are German native speakers in Belgium.

Belgium has 4 ministries, parliaments: Brussels, Flemish, Wallonian, and German -speaking. A lot of people complain that it's too expensive and ridiculous. Wallonia does NOT include Brussels, the Brussels people are brussel people, not Wallonian. Brussels is much, much richer as well.

Sorry, but I don't know so much about the politics, except that the candidates on the posters use photoshopped pictures haha. I know a lady who was a candidate, and her poster was like 20 or 30 years younger. my brother and me have laughed so much when we saw her poster. :lol:
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Re: Overscore's log

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:59 am

overscore wrote:Peterhof, don't worry, free talk is more than welcome in my log. Just keep in mind I might post unrelated updates to what's going on.
vogeltje wrote:The Brussels accent is different, and when the Flemish speak French they've got a different accent, so often the French people think of this when they think of belgians, and that we are countryside idiots hahaha.

As Quebecer I can relate well to that. Even here you couldn't speak dialect in official positions until very recently, but it used to be the Clergy had control of virtually everything in society.
So from the outside everything sounds fairly normal and educated, then when French people come over they discover we all speak like medieval lumberjacks with no manners (no Vousvoiement). :lol:


I've heard Quebec french and the accent is a bit weird, sorry :lol: English speakers refuse to believe or accept it, but french is pluricentric. Anyway, French people (Parisians I mean) don't accept other varieties at all. Bad luck haha. Medieval lumberjack hahahahah
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: 1 / 50 Spanish grammar
: 5 / 50 Spanish vocabulary

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Re: Overscore's log

Postby overscore » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:56 am

vogeltje wrote:
overscore wrote:Peterhof, don't worry, free talk is more than welcome in my log. Just keep in mind I might post unrelated updates to what's going on.
vogeltje wrote:The Brussels accent is different, and when the Flemish speak French they've got a different accent, so often the French people think of this when they think of belgians, and that we are countryside idiots hahaha.

As Quebecer I can relate well to that. Even here you couldn't speak dialect in official positions until very recently, but it used to be the Clergy had control of virtually everything in society.
So from the outside everything sounds fairly normal and educated, then when French people come over they discover we all speak like medieval lumberjacks with no manners (no Vousvoiement). :lol:

Come. To the dark side of French. :lol: :lol:

I've heard Quebec french and the accent is a bit weird, sorry :lol: English speakers refuse to believe or accept it, but french is pluricentric. Anyway, French people (Parisians I mean) don't accept other varieties at all. Bad luck haha. Medieval lumberjack hahahahah
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