Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby Stefan » Tue May 30, 2017 10:43 am

Captioned video for L2 listening and vocabulary learning: A meta-analysis
The overall results of our meta-analysis revealed a large superiority of captioning in that captioning groups significantly outperformed the control group on both listening and vocabulary posttests. Results thus support the claim that captioning helps learners to improve comprehension and fosters vocabulary learning.
Watching Subtitled Films Can Help Learning Foreign Languages
In order to test the potential learning effects derived from watching subtitled media, a group of intermediate Spanish students of English as a foreign language watched a 1h-long episode of a TV drama in its original English version, with English, Spanish or no subtitles overlaid. Before and after the viewing, participants took a listening and vocabulary test to evaluate their speech perception and vocabulary acquisition in English, plus a final plot comprehension test. The results of the listening skills tests revealed that after watching the English subtitled version, participants improved these skills significantly more than after watching the Spanish subtitled or no-subtitles versions. The vocabulary test showed no reliable differences between subtitled conditions. Finally, as one could expect, plot comprehension was best under native, Spanish subtitles. These learning effects with just 1 hour exposure might have major implications with longer exposure times.

I understand the reasoning behind jumping into the water but all scientific data seems to confirm that L2 subtitles benefits listening comprehension more than L1 or no subtitles. Is there anything pointing in the other direction?
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby Voytek » Wed May 31, 2017 11:35 am

Personally, if I wanted read and listen I would go with the L-R method (both in L2) because I found reading subtitles while watching a movie quite distracting and annoying. I can't focus on the video doing so and I benefit much more from watching movies in Spanish (without subtitles) which I can understand at least at 90% and that's what I do when I'm at B2+ - C1+ level. For me it's a great method because you can learn pragmatic meaning of words you already know (its practical/social use) and when I'm encountering an unfamiliar word I simply jot it down and then if I find it useful, I put it into Anki. Also thanks to that you can notice how your TL grammar rules work in the social context.
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby Voytek » Wed May 31, 2017 9:22 pm

Stefan wrote:I understand the reasoning behind jumping into the water but all scientific data seems to confirm that L2 subtitles benefits listening comprehension more than L1 or no subtitles. Is there anything pointing in the other direction?


It could be that way because almost all language students learn mainly by reading, therefore their reading skills are much better, but as we all know listenng skills are far more important and I think it's beter to read and listen only than watch movies with TL subtitles. I noticed that difference while watching Swedish movies. I could hardly understand what they spoke but understand almost everything I read from subtitles. I found that it's much better for me to listen to the Swedish radio (barnradion with auditions for 3-8 y.o. kids) with about 90% comprehension, watch Sailor Moon in Swedish without any subtitles with 80% comprehension or listen to an audiobook in Swedish while reading the book in Polish.
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby Voytek » Wed May 31, 2017 10:01 pm

Here you can find a very interesting guide about learning languages from watching TV:
http://www.5minutelanguage.com/jump-start-your-language-skills-by-watching-tv-a-4-step-guide/
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby Sayonaroo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:58 pm

considering how most shows don't have L2 subtitles available, I pretty much always watch L2 stuff with L2 subs because I want to understand 100% and I don't want to waste time rewinding to catch/confirm something that I'm really certain of but not 100% sure. also i have plenty of stuff with no subtitles in my L2 so I'll deal with that when I'm forced to. so for me it'd only be a dilemma if I limited myself to watching stuff that have L2 subs available but i would never do that

I think listening to the episode after watching with the L2 subs would be a good compromise for not watching the ep without any subs. there's no con of missing out on the show (especially if it happens to be really well-written etc etc. plus if you don't know the word may not be able to catch it just from the audio.). I personally don't want to rewatch anything but relistening is not a big deal as long as what I watched was entertaining and enjoyable. You can make listening more efficient by using sub2srs to generate the the audio files for only the talking parts. I would think you'd get the most benefit of watching stuff without subs if you're rewinding parts that bother you several times to catch it/confirm what you thought you heard but that can get tedious but I have done this before because what was I watching was that interesting and worth understanding in its entirety (but my level was advanced when I did this so it's not like the stuff was way over my head and impossible to possibly figure out/catch. If you have no vocabulary then you should gain it before doing stuff like watching stuff without subtitles so you have some chance at getting something out of it).

So for this general question it all comes down to what your level is. Depending on your level there's gonna be differences in vocab and reading speed. I think if you're beginner you shouldn't bother with watching without any subs because you just don't Benefit much from it and I think you'd benefit much more doing other stuff...
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby golyplot » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:36 am

I always watch first without subtitles, and sometimes rewatch if I'm curious what they really said. I don't see much point in doing it the reverse way, but to each their own.
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:16 am

Cavesa wrote:.....
Yes, the original subtitles can be helpful. But there is a point at which you simply need to jump to the water. And the sooner, the better, in my opinion. It will be difficult at any point you choose. The only way through is investing dozens and hundreds hours into it, and not being a perfectionist at the beginning.


I think part of the issue is that there are two opposing desires:
- understanding in the immediacy, with as little frustration as possible for entertainment purposes,
and
- using the material as a learning experience with some understanding difficulty so that learning takes places.

If one understands that being somewhat uncomfortable about the content is necessary and that this will take time one is then likelier to accept the need to be frustrated and imperfect with understanding.

Personally, I think it is content dependent, I'm for L1 subtitles at the beginning, accepting that this is entertainment and focusing learning time elsewhere. Or selecting material that is really adequate for the experience. For example, listening to an entire film in Hebrew for me, without L1 subtitles would be a waste of time at this point. Doing that with cartoons for young children might be adequate without subtitles.

The study posted above seems to confirm my bias - I've always felt that L2 subtitles help acquire understanding and develop the ear. "This sound is supposed to mean this." I think I'll continue to work with L2 subtitles until about A2/B1 levels. But clearly, when using sub2srs I now want to assure I also have "audio only" L2 cards.
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:45 pm

A tricky question to answer, depending on where the OP is in listening ability. Just the other day I watched an episode of the TV show Eureka dubbed into French. I would have been all at sea without L2 subtitles. If L1 subtitles had been necessary, I would not have watched it at all. There is plenty of easier listening for the major languages at any rate to help the learner get up to speed without so much pain.
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby Sayonaroo » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:11 am

If you have the vid/subtitle files you can delay the subs by 1 second to get that confirmation and to make yourself listen more. It seems like it would be a less harsh jump than subs to no subs... as for myself I watch my L2 crap with L2 subs because I have plenty of crap in my L2 without L2 subs... my only dilemma is that a lot of my L2 media doesn't have any L2 subs. Sometimes I wish I was learning english lol since nearly everything has subs.

2 ways to do it. one is use kmplayer and press ] 2 times
another way is to open the subtitle file in some kind of editing program like aegisub or subshift website if it's .srt format and shift the subs. for aegisub you go to timing -> shift I believe... you'd choose forward 1.00.
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Re: Watching TV without subtitles VS with (dilemma!)

Postby zenmonkey » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:55 pm

Another thing to consider when watching dubbed material is the McGurk Effect:

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=6048
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