Mein Deutsch Logbuch

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motylyok
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Location: Москва
Languages: English (N) Russian (advanced) German (rusty advanced) Spanish (beginner)
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.org/vi ... f=15&t=895
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Re: Mein Deutsch Logbuch

Postby motylyok » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:01 pm

Though they pronounced ich like "ish," which is not how it has been in Assimil.

"ish" is a regional variation, in various German dialects they pronounce the "ich" laut like an "ish", for example in Sächsisch und Hessisch! I find it strange that a textbook would record someone with this accent, since the official Standarddeutsch pronunciation will be like the "ich" Laut you are used to hearing.

First, if one wants to say "You cannot come today," is it equally correct to say either of the following?

"Du kannst nicht heute kommen."

or

"Du kannst heute nicht kommen."


I automatically thought it was the latter than suddenly started to doubt myself... I'm actually not sure what the negation rules are. I will have a look tomorrow and edit this post with my findings if I remember, since I'm pretty sure there's something about this in the grammar I bought for university. Just send me a gentle reminder if you don't find an answer to this before!

I also massively approve of your decision to learn German! I love this language, there is so much wonderful literature written in German and I think the language itself sounds wunderbar.
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diplomaticus
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Re: Mein Deutsch Logbuch

Postby diplomaticus » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:04 pm

motylyok wrote:
Though they pronounced ich like "ish," which is not how it has been in Assimil.

"ish" is a regional variation, in various German dialects they pronounce the "ich" laut like an "ish", for example in Sächsisch und Hessisch! I find it strange that a textbook would record someone with this accent, since the official Standarddeutsch pronunciation will be like the "ich" Laut you are used to hearing.

First, if one wants to say "You cannot come today," is it equally correct to say either of the following?

"Du kannst nicht heute kommen."

or

"Du kannst heute nicht kommen."


I automatically thought it was the latter than suddenly started to doubt myself... I'm actually not sure what the negation rules are. I will have a look tomorrow and edit this post with my findings if I remember, since I'm pretty sure there's something about this in the grammar I bought for university. Just send me a gentle reminder if you don't find an answer to this before!

I also massively approve of your decision to learn German! I love this language, there is so much wonderful literature written in German and I think the language itself sounds wunderbar.

Gentle reminder!!

Goodness. My new job is really trying to get its money's worth from me. Our fiscal year ends September 30th, I worked 85 hours thus far this week, and they said that is the norm until October 1 :/ I have been so tired I haven't really been reviewing prior lessons and just don't have the energy to do much more than run through the new one once or twice. I am flummoxed regarding what to do. Keep pushing forward a lesson a day, stop progressing and just keep reviewing the first 20 lessons until the new fiscal year starts, etc....
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Petit a petit, l’oiseau fait son nid.

User avatar
motylyok
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Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:40 am
Location: Москва
Languages: English (N) Russian (advanced) German (rusty advanced) Spanish (beginner)
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.org/vi ... f=15&t=895
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Re: Mein Deutsch Logbuch

Postby motylyok » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:22 pm

diplomaticus wrote:Gentle reminder!!


Silly scatterbrained me!!

So I've typed up the entire page that's vaguely relevant to what you wanted to know.

Basically, this isn't the best explained grammar I've ever read, but to me it seems that "du kannst heute nicht kommen" is the correct form due to the fact that the whole sentence is being negated. I really hope this helps you in some way.

(Source: Modern German Grammar: A Practical Guide (3rd Edition) Ruth Whittle, John Klapper et. al pp.36)

Position of 'nicht'
If a whole clause or sentence is being negated, nicht is placed at the end or as near to the end as possible.
e.g. Solche Probleme hast du bei uns nicht.
You won't have problems like that with us.
Um halb zehn war der Zug immer noch nicht abgefahren.
At half nine the train still had not left.
When used this way, nicht is placed after objects or adverbials but before adverbs of manner
Er ist heute wegen der Schlechten Wetters nicht sehr schnell (MANNER) vorangekommen.
He didn't get on very quickly today because of the bad weather.

Otherwise the general rule is that nicht comes immediately before the individual element that it negates
Das Essen hat er nicht für uns vorbereitet.
It wasn't for us that he made the meal.
Das ist doch nicht dein Schlüssel.
That's not your key.

It is important to note that nicht precedes all elements that complete the sense of the verb.
Stell die heiße Tasse nicht auf den Tisch.
Don't put the hot cup on the table.
Sie meint, ich soll mich nicht darüber ärgern.
She says I shouldn't get annoyed about it.
Er ist heute nicht nach London gefahren.
He hasn't gone to London today.

Note in the third example that, if stress is placed on 'London', the implication is that he travelled somewhere other than London. More explictly, this would be:
Er ist nicht nach London gefahren, sondern nach Paris.
It's Paris he's gone to, not London.
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Komma
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Posts: 146
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Location: Germany
Languages: German (N); learning actively: Japanese (beginner); learning passively: English (probably C1/2), French (false beginner); on halt: Spanish (beginner)
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.org/vi ... =15&t=1067
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Re: Mein Deutsch Logbuch

Postby Komma » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:53 pm

Hello everyone,
as I am a native speaker, I'd like to comment on your question. (Though I'm not a grammar expert. As native speaker this is kind of a feeling instead of the knowledge of the exact rule.)

First, if one wants to say "You cannot come today," is it equally correct to say either of the following?

"Du kannst nicht heute kommen."

or

"Du kannst heute nicht kommen."


Normally I think you would say "Du kannst heute nicht kommen." if you want to say what you meant.
Though it depends on what you want to stress. For example if you want to say "you can't come today but tomorrow" the phrase "Du kannst nicht heute kommen, aber morgen" would sound totally fine to me.
I know this might not be a real rule, but I hope it helps anyway ;)
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