Languid Language Learning

[Bakunin]

[...] I think with this experiment I'd want to go completely Bakunin and see how far I get before I crash and burn. Hopefully, I will work out an effective or semi-effective strategy before that happens...

That's awesome! Should you go for it, then I hope you won't crash and burn! I'm happy to share and discuss my experience with you anytime and also point you to the little bits of literature which exist. The biggest challenge is probably learning to let go and accept ambiguity, to lean back and trust your brain to do the heavy lifting for you; it's a completely different learning experience compared to textbook study. I'd be thrilled to follow your experiment!

[daegga]

the rest is lost as the Swedes are obviously so rich they don't pirate.

Funny, with the founders of the (former) biggest torrent site being Swedes. Swedish is the easiest of the Scandinavian languages to find something using the underground channels. TV series, ebooks, audiobooks, you name it. Swedes are such pirates, they even founded a political party with that name, which made it to the EU parliament.

Maybe we should start a shared list somewhere pointing to interesting sites and magnet links for Scandinavian languages

[Cavesa]

the rest is lost as the Swedes are obviously so rich they don't pirate.

Funny, with the founders of the (former) biggest torrent site being Swedes. Swedish is the easiest of the Scandinavian languages to find something using the underground channels. TV series, ebooks, audiobooks, you name it. Swedes are such pirates, they even founded a political party with that name, which made it to the EU parliament.

Maybe we should start a shared list somewhere pointing to interesting sites and magnet links for Scandinavian languages

You're totally right, silly me!

Well, our Pirates (fortunately, the parties are growing across whole Europe) were very successful in the last communal elections, and there were really close to both our parlament and the european one. I nearly became a member a few years ago but then my life got crazy and I had tons of different worries. And there are organisations like the Open Rights Group and such but we are still unlikely to see a positive change as the industry is sooo rigid and stupid. So, let's all get VPNs, I am already planning it.

You know, the online pirate treasure chests are a bit harder to find then they used to be, I'd say. Any recommendations are welcome, even though I still need to wait before I start Swedish.

And truth be told, I am impatiently waiting for the scandalous news article "a desperate learner caught stealing Swedish books from Ikea". Any guess which country will it come from? Will it be a htlaler? (the next one is gonna be "a language bandit seriously hurt by a learner in self-defence" or "a learner breaks down and laughs hysterically having been recommended Rosetta Stone again")

[astromule]

Our word in context, courtesy of the novel Eld:
Minoo stirrar ner i det rutade blocket. Ylvas utbrott gör henne fruktansvärt generad"
Han ser generad ut och tittar bort.
Till och med den ser generad ut.
Hon ser både generad och rädd ut.

[Elenia]

@Bakunin - nice to see you over on my aimless log I think I will definitely be taking you up on that offer once I work out a strategy I read a few of the things linked to on your blog, and I'm slowly making my way through the rest. I'll talk about my thoughts a little further down.

@1e4e6 - hmm, I used it for watching specific programs, I never really browsed. So maybe I was just lucky enough that my tastes coincided with the things they thought I ought to watch. I'm not techy enough to think about a VPN, and I don't watch things enough to really need one. I do have a site with some Swedish TV bookmarked, but I think it is mostly dedicated to Anglophone things with Swedish subtitles. Sorry!

@daegga & Cavesa - perhaps I should rename my log 'the pirates' ship'? I am actually incredibly tempted by this idea!

@astromule - ah, thank you! I will try and keep a look out for it in my current book, too. Your examples only show it with 'se ut', I wonder if this is indicative of the way it is used more widely, or if it is because of the content of the book. By the by, I like the idea of having a particular word and then looking out for it in native media. It's always fun when a word I have learnt pops up in something I am listening to or reading. Maybe I should have a weekly word for all of my languages, although it would be difficult to arrange as I can't be sure when or where that word will come up, or if it will show itself at all!

---

So, Bakunin asked me what my ideas were for the listening experiment, and I have to say that I'm still not sure. However, thanks to the question, I've put a lot more thought into it.

I have already asked a friend if she'll record some content for me in German, although I am not yet decided what. As reader of my .com log might know, my German is still quite basic, and so I think whatever I have her record will be more in line with the recordings Bakunin uses when starting out: simple, non-abstract nouns, moving on to basic descriptions and so on. Basically, things that are geared towards vocabulary acquisition. I do have the advantage of not being a complete beginner in German: I can puzzle my way through a few chapters of a book, but I am quite happy to have extremely low comprehension while doing so. I am fairly confident about my ability to pick out and produce German sounds, and German is close to English and Swedish, so these things will help me here. For Swedish, I would be looking for recordings that help train my ear. I particularly want to become more used to the Lund/Malmö accents - Skånska more generally can come when I feel braver! I guess for audio training, as opposed to vocabulary opposition, I would need recordings that have quite a lot going on, and an interesting story line that I can listen and relisten to. However, I specifically do not want recordings of people reading aloud. I would much rather recordings of the kind of anecdote someone might tell in normal conversation - perhaps even series of similar anecdotes. Hopefully, these kinds of recordings will get me more used to prosody in normal speech. While I can pick it out in the things I normally listen to - podcasts and television - I have as yet not been able to get a clear model. This is probably because no one person speaks for an extended length of time.

Both these will listening activities will be used aside whatever way it is I feel like messing about with the languages. I feel it will be more supplementary in Swedish than in German. I really hope that it will be the way I get through the German haze that seems to stop me from progressing.

I would like to try a more pure listening only approach with a completely new language. Right now I am thinking maybe Romanian, or Portuguese. However, as I have mentioned either here or over on Bakunin's log, I don't have the kind of funds for that right now. It is also an experiment that would require a lot of time, so I will have to know that the languages on my 'studies' list (Swedish and German) and also Dutch are at a level where I feel okay about letting them play in the sandpit while my back is turned. This depends not only on my feelings as a fairly negligent language mother, but also on my future study plans. So, for example, I personally feel that Swedish is fairly close, and that once my speaking is more reasonable I would be quite happy to let it do whatever, whenever. As I said in my .com log, Swedish takes care of itself. BUT if I feel that I wanted to, say, study in Sweden, it would need a LOT more TLC before I can think about adding another baby to my brood.

So, now that I've worked that metaphor to death...

I am thinking about a way to make this listening only approach viable with limited (read: no) funds. In hindsight, Swedish and German would have been the best two languages to start with, as I have native speakers of both willing to help my out. But that ship has sailed. Oh, well. The future is still a fairly far away place, so I have time to work out the details.

---

In other news:

I have finished the Kindle Sample of Nagasaki by Éric Faye, and there is absolutely no way I'm not going to buy the book. But, has anyone noticed how expensive French books are? I figure that, at that price I'd rather buy the real thing. So I'll see if it is available in Foyles, or if I would be able to order it to buy from there.

I have also started new books in both Swedish and German, despite not having ever finished a single book in these languages before, despite having books from these languages on my 'currently reading' list for a very long time...

The Swedish book, Kaninhjärta by Christin Ljungkvist, appears to be some kind of supernatural/horror/thriller/crime mix up, and has gotten fairly good reviews. I've only read about a page, but it is very interesting so far. I bought the ebook for the bargain price of 37SEK, so even if I don't love it I think I won't feel too bad. The sentences are very long, but easy to understand, and I've not really had a problem with the vocabulary. There is a lot of time for that to change, though.

The German book is Splitterherz, by Bettina Belitz. I have the Kindle sample of it, and so far it seems like it will go the way of Les Cendres de l'oubli. I will be more than happy to be proven wrong, however.

I have also managed to cross another item off the hitlist: I finally finished another podcast, and listened to just over half of a new one. So, if we count the two unfinished podcasts, that makes three. I consider this cheating, sort of, but I didn't outline rules and so I'm going to cheat anyway. I also realise that half an hour of Kaamelott wasn't included in this weeks goals, but I don't mind. Ragardless of the goals, I have managed to spend a substantial amount of time with my three main languages. I don't mind not doing anything with my wanderlust languages - I have been too busy having fun with my 'studies' list. However, I do feel a bit bad for Dutch, so I will try to do a bit more tomorrow.

[astromule]

Yes, good point, I didn't noticed that it only goes with "se ut". I'm going to pay attention next time that I encounter that word.
I have started reading "Låt den rätte komma in", as I got tired of Henning Mankell, at least for the moment.
Other contexts for the word, using my own CSE: https://cse.google.com.ar/cse/publicurl ... 9nz47mysc4
In many cases "generad" goes along with "blir", t. e. "bli generad".

This is my Swedish newspapers engine: https://cse.google.com.ar/cse/publicurl ... 9nz47mysc4

@astromule - ah, thank you! I will try and keep a look out for it in my current book, too. Your examples only show it with 'se ut', I wonder if this is indicative of the way it is used more widely, or if it is because of the content of the book. By the by, I like the idea of having a particular word and then looking out for it in native media. It's always fun when a word I have learnt pops up in something I am listening to or reading. Maybe I should have a weekly word for all of my languages, although it would be difficult to arrange as I can't be sure when or where that word will come up, or if it will show itself at all!

[Bakunin]

Thanks for the comprehensive answer!

Since you're learning German and I'm a native speaker, I could try to do a few recordings for you to demonstrate the technique and maybe help you find the right level. I've never done such recordings myself... I'm great at critizing my tutors but I'm not sure if I'm any good at doing it myself. But it would be worth a try.

Here's a rough grouping of the types of recordings I'm working with at various stages, from beginner to intermediate/advanced:
(A) super-basic and visually guided picture description using individual pictures, a busy book, or a wordless picture book
(B) basic picture description and story telling using a wordless picture book
(C1) detailed picture description and story telling, adding in lots of additional information, using a wordless picture book
(C2) story-telling/monologue without any pictures, topic given
(C3) vocabulary recordings

From what you write, I'd say (B) is be the right format for you. I could try to do two or three pictures of a wordless picture story later this week, and you can then tell me whether you're picking anything up or not.

Random comments on the other things you've written:
- I never use recordings of people reading aloud, that defeats the purpose of the exercise; get an audiobook if you want to listen to written language.
- Are you familiar with my project Thai Recordings? That's more or less what you would like to have for Swedish: a series of similar anecdotes someone might tell in normal conversation. I had them made in sets of three and on topics chosen from a list ('going to the dentist', 'cats', diarrhea', 'beach' etc.). That format can be quite entertaining - it's always interesting to hear people tell stories and talk about their experiences.
- If I were you, I'd try it with German or Swedish first and not with a brand-new language. Maybe you quickly realize that this approach doesn't work for you, that you don't enjoy the ambiguity etc., and then it's not worth going through the hassle to train a tutor/friend to deliver comprehensible input from the very beginning. It's definitively easier at the high beginner or intermediate level.

Let me know if you want me to do some recordings (I could also do (A), of course, or one of the (C)'s). I can't promise that they'll be great or even useful, but I'd be willing to give it a try.

[Elenia]

@astromule - I saw that there was one more example on your log without 'se ut' - did it use 'bli' instead? It was an example using 'till och med'. Speaking of 'till och med', I spent ages mining sentences using that construction and putting them in anki, because I had a tendency to read it word by word and take it at face value. Using anki to drill it didn't help much, but all that prep work did!

If you're interested and don't mind spending money on it, [url=storytel.se]storytel.se[/url] do have the audiobook version of this and many other books. Otherwise, the first part was still available on youtube last time I checked...

Thanks as always for the incredibly helpful links!

@Bakunin - yes, please! I think your assessment is about right - the B level would probably be optimal for vocabulary acquisition. It would be a good base to find out if I need to backtrack a little, or if I can take something more complex. Thank you so much

I hadn't heard of your Thai Recordings project, but it is something exactly this that I would like. I think I would only want samples from two or speakers across the topics. I get a fairly large amount of passive exposure, so that should take care of global understanding. And yes, I would definitely like interesting topics. I think this is one of the first things that compelled me to try a more listening based approach for myself. I haven't enjoyed or made much progress with any of the learner materials that I have found so far for German, because they are all incredibly uninteresting. And, even when there is an effort for speakers to sound spontaneous, they feel very unnatural. I enjoy reading more, but I am finding it harder to pick up words from reading than I did with Swedish.

Thank you for the advice and for the offer once again. I am getting more and more excited about this project!

---

In other news, I have watched another Mumin episode, and listened to the audio for TY Dutch (although I didn't do the exercises). This leaves me well and truly satisfied with this weeks progress. I'm not sure what I want for next week, but I'm sure it'll be something that keeps me busy with the Output Challenge and the 6WC, which I want to take part in.

I'm not sure what language I should choose for the 6WC- German, Dutch or Catalan?

[Cavesa]

I loved the Mumins when I was a child! I had most of the books. What is the series like? Is it fun even for a grown up? Is the Swedish accessible?

[Elenia]

I loved the Mumins when I was a child! I had most of the books. What is the series like? Is it fun even for a grown up? Is the Swedish accessible?

Well, I love it so much, especially when I need a little bit off fluff for comfort but we both know I'm probably not the best example of a grown up I find the Swedish really clear and accessible, and quite easy to understand. I find that I come across very few unknown words, and I can follow the series quite easily

---

So, what have I done in the past few days?

I wrote a trilingual entry on my blog, talking about the books which I mentioned here. I wrote about the French books in French and the Swedish book in Swedish, which was fun, and a lot less taxing than I thought it would be. I haven't looked over the entry for mistakes, and I am sure there are some. But I think I managed to avoid a few. Sadly I couldn't write in German about Splitterherz in German: that is still very far away for me. But there has been progress on the German front, all thanks due to Bakunin who has made me three excellent recordings. I have listened to those a few times, and will certainly listen to them more. I can already feel them working, and it's only been two days. I will talk about the experience in more detail, when I have worked at it a bit more. But so far, so good

I - ahem - acquired a copy of Le Suédois sans peine. To be honest, I wouldn't have minded paying for it that much, if I was just starting out in Swedish. I am considering buying the German textbook. But just listening to the first dialogues feels very slow, and even the last lessons aren't as quick as the things I usually listen to - although Cavesa, it might interest you to know that it is about the same speed and clarity as Mumin is. I think it will still be a very good tool for me to work with, especially in getting used to the prosody. And it might be a little more fun than FSI, too.

Other than that, I wrote around four hundred words worth of Swedish messages, which I am still amazed by. Said messages were written late at night, when I was very tired, so it's a wonder they were even a little bit coherent. In fact, I think the words came to me more easily than they usually do. Startling, yes, but I am not complaining!

Finally, I bought a copy of Nagasaki, and I am slowly reading my way through it. It is a very slim book, and so I ought to be finished with it soon. I am still enjoying it very much, however.

And, finally, finally (more a post scriptum, really), I have registered for the 6 Week Challenge with German. Wish me luck!