Xmmm wrote:"The [false] conclusion is ... that programming is somehow fabulously easier to learn than anything else"
Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years:http://norvig.com/21-days.html
And again this is what I need to be aware of, cheers.
Xmmm wrote:"The [false] conclusion is ... that programming is somehow fabulously easier to learn than anything else"
Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years:http://norvig.com/21-days.html
PeterMollenburg wrote:With my 40s not far off the prospect of age discrimination doesn't sound so fantastic, but of course there are plenty of positives from what you say from your experience as well. Is freelancing from home (wherever one might be) a realistic possibility in the field? I'm thinking if your work is quality and you're not 40 years old+ in plain sight you could potentially work around that issue.
PeterMollenburg wrote:One large reservation is I could be swapping one career I'm not entirely satisfied with for another (if I was passionate I probably would be a programmer already- but you never know)... so if I took to it and enjoyed it, the effort and time would have to show almost definite promise eventually in terms of lifestyle change. Of course I can only be the judge of that for my personal situation, but handy insights from those in the field definitely help in the decision making process.
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Montmorency wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:I want to ask a question related to IT work.
It appears to me that those who work in IT are able to live and work in other countries with relative ease. In particular there are are a lot of programmers here on the forum. I'd like to ask the following...
...In your experience (particularly if you have IT or programming experience) is it a correct observation that those with IT/programming as their main source of income are quite able to find work in other countries?
I am curious as I am "trying it in for size" ie Would re-training in IT or even specifically programming open foreign doors? Naturally, like many people here, the possibility of working overseas is an attractive one- but are my (crude) observations of the IT field a little rediculous? If I could work in a position that is more free to cross borders (and learn languages of course) it would be potentially a career changing decision for me.
My profession is sold as being a rather mobile profession. Not the case for non-English speaking countries. The time it takes to reach B2-C1, have training and experience 'assessed', pass nursing exams, do conversion courses/retrain and find work although not impossible is full of hurdles that prevent one from simply finding a job and getting into the culture much sooner. Plenty of nurses come here and work and do what it takes so where there's a will there's a way, but it is a very valid statement to say that are not going from Australia to France in which the rules are very different. I don't think the IT field suffers from the same cumbersome and sometimes very valid rules as nursing.
I have NO IT experience.
PM
I've been out of the IT world professionally for quite a few years now, so bear that in mind when reading what follows:
Generally speaking, people don't learn "programming", they learn one or more programming languages or systems. However, if one really knows nothing about IT, then it might pay to start reading about IT systems in general. While a lot obviously changed in my 3 decades + in the business, certain principles haven't changed, and it's worth finding out what those are.
At this stage, I wouldn't spend money on expensive courses (maybe do that later when you have a better idea what you want to do), but it would be worth investing in a few books. The O'Reilly series comes to mind. If you have any friends in the IT world, it might be worth asking around for suggestions.
In many ways, the most important thing about being a programmer is not so much writing code, but in being able to see the big picture, and being able to see how your code module(s) fit into the total system. If you advance far enough it may be you designing and building that system from parts built by other programmers which you specified. You have to be both detail-oriented, but also able to "zoom out". This becomes even more important when things start to go wrong and you have to debug the system. All systems have bugs...
While in many ways, I preferred the smaller, simpler IT world that I "grew up in", the advantage of today's world is that it's pretty easy to learn to program from scratch in the comfort of one's own home. (I started on punched-card machines in large draughty noisy machine-rooms ).
Perhaps you could think of some task you want to perform - it could be language-related - prepare a parallel-text perhaps? Count the number of times a particular verb or noun appears in a book in your TL? Maybe develop that into a word-frequency list?
The above, like a lot of tasks that seem to come the programmer's way are about text-processing of course (and that's all got a bit more complicated since "my" day with much more awareness of national/international character sets). When I was still at work, PERL was all the rage for this kind of thing. Python was also around, but it seems to be talked about a bit more now. Well, those and other programming languages and text editors depend on something called "regular expressions" which is a fascinating subject in itself, and a book I'd like to recommend is Mastering Regular Expressions by Jeffrey Friedl. It's now in its 3rd edition. I have the 1st and 2nd, but the 1st edition would be fine for getting an idea of what it's all about. What you learn in there would help in Python, Perl, several other languages, and several text editors.
Well, anyway, however exactly you choose to go about it, I'd get a little programming experience in the comfort of your own home, as it were, and see if you like it. In the meantime, talk to any friends you may have in the business; try to find out what they do (and if they like the work!).
dampingwire wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:With my 40s not far off the prospect of age discrimination doesn't sound so fantastic, but of course there are plenty of positives from what you say from your experience as well. Is freelancing from home (wherever one might be) a realistic possibility in the field? I'm thinking if your work is quality and you're not 40 years old+ in plain sight you could potentially work around that issue.
"Programming" is a bit like "medicine" in that there are lots of different types of programmer. Are you planning to work on websites, embedded systems, billing systems? I've worked in networking and embedded systems and thoroughly enjoyed it. I can tell you, however, that at least in the companies I've worked in, you aren't likely to get a foot in the door without some experience. I would say "unless you are a graduate", but having interviewed graduates too, I can say that we look for and get graduates who have shown some interest. By that I mean that they've written some real code they can show us and talk about. 30 years ago that would have been different but these days everyone has a computer in their pocket. There's really no excuse for not having written an app or two or whatever by the time you've finished uni. So even if you are willing to accept a graduate salary, you still face some stiff competition.PeterMollenburg wrote:One large reservation is I could be swapping one career I'm not entirely satisfied with for another (if I was passionate I probably would be a programmer already- but you never know)... so if I took to it and enjoyed it, the effort and time would have to show almost definite promise eventually in terms of lifestyle change. Of course I can only be the judge of that for my personal situation, but handy insights from those in the field definitely help in the decision making process.
This is where you fail the interview for me You've shown no interest so far but the next guy has. Maybe the guy after him doesn't seem as enthusiastic, but he's got 10 years of experience, so there's at least a chance that he can program ...
As for working from home, we do let people do that, but no-one in the office (that I know of) works from home more than 2 days a week on a regular basis. Other places may be much more flexible, but I'd expect that to happen only once you have proven yourself capable in the first place.
I certainly don't mean to put you off programming: give it a go, see if you like it. The (free) tools are out there for you to learn about programming and systems management and networking and so on. I find being able to write brief throwaway scripts incredibly helpful for odd little data conversion jobs that crop up in language learning ("how do I get these 2,000 lines of data from a spreadsheet into Anki but with this tweak"?) and you may do to. Or you may not. But turning it into a new career is going to require time and effort, so far as I can see.
Tomás wrote:When I was a kid, US Embassies always employed at least one nurse, usually an American national. Does your country have similar positions?
PeterMollenburg wrote:Tomás wrote:When I was a kid, US Embassies always employed at least one nurse, usually an American national. Does your country have similar positions?
Hmmm very interesting. I've never heard of this. I must find out.
Tomás wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:Tomás wrote:When I was a kid, US Embassies always employed at least one nurse, usually an American national. Does your country have similar positions?
Hmmm very interesting. I've never heard of this. I must find out.
There is also the military. Then there are NGOs such as Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, etc. These wouldn't get you to France, but they could get you to French-speaking developing countries.
The other options are Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands (I'm a passport holder) or the UK/Ireland (desperation avenue there- prefer not), and they all ultimately lead to France in the end.
Xmmm wrote:The other options are Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands (I'm a passport holder) or the UK/Ireland (desperation avenue there- prefer not), and they all ultimately lead to France in the end.
http://www.geneva.info/trips/
Annecy (beautiful French town) is 40 minutes by car from Geneva. And French is the predominant language spoken in Geneva.
Your current strategy:
Obsess to develop the perfect plan that allows you and your family to parachute into Paris. This is virtually impossible, so develop all kinds of alternative plans (increasingly outlandish). Reject all alternative plans as less than perfect and put them in the discard pile, but don't discard. Wait a month, shuffle them and begin again. In the meantime, continue to live in Australia and practice your French using books and mp3 files while everyone in your family gets a little older and a little more settled in Australia.
Very simple alternate strategy:
Pack bags and move to Geneva. Spend weekends in France. Talk to locals about how to get the paperwork so you can work in France. Practice your French daily with French speakers.
But ... I know ... Geneva is not France! And it's definitely not Paris. Waiting for the next installment.
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