I hate French - help!

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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Irena » Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:24 pm

unionfan wrote:I'm English and live in France and my learning of French has totally plateau'd. I've come across all the usual advice about immersion, reading, television, radio etc and right now it's just not working.

How long have you been on this plateau? The reason I ask is because progress in language learning is not only not linear, but may well feel discontinuous. Basically, you keep putting in the time and effort, you see little (if any) improvement, and then suddenly, something clicks and you're noticeably better than you were before. This has happened to me many times with multiple languages. The last time was just a couple of months ago with Czech. I set myself the goal of reading 10K pages of Czech. At right around 8K pages, something just clicked, and suddenly, reading felt noticeably smoother and easier than before. I didn't change strategy or do anything I wasn't doing before. It was just a matter of reaching critical mass. If you're spending a lot of time on your French, doing all the things people say you should (reading, listening, using French in daily interactions...), it may just be that you need to be patient until something "clicks" for you.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby rdearman » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:47 pm

unionfan wrote:Hello all, I'm here out of desperation.
I'm English and live in France and my learning of French has totally plateau'd. I've come across all the usual advice about immersion, reading, television, radio etc and right now it's just not working. At B2 level, I'm finding I hate this nonsensical and illogical language with such a passion that it is ruining my motivation to do anything else here. We still have weekly French lessons (after 6 years) and I just hate every minute of it. Nothing gets retained more than 60 minutes after each lesson and I resent with every fibre having to "organise" and "make time" to learn every single day! I want it to just sink in like it does for the 10-year olds.

I'm running two businesses, one of which is agricultural so I do not have the ability to drop everything to do with life to spend a daily hour on French. It's too hard and no longer makes any sense to me and if I were less bothered about being "that ignorant immigrant", I would just give up! I am not motivated to do anything this difficult; I've got too much else to do with my time.

So, I need help with motivation, changing-up the learning to something that works and not hating this damn language. Any and all ideas gratefully received :-)
Thanks in advance, UF.

Oh brother, I feel your pain! But I don't agree that you need to love the French language to learn French. I learned it and I hate it with a passion. I agree with most of the advice people have given you. But if you're anything like me, then you need a plan, not advice. You haven't given much away about where the obstacles are for you. But I can probably figure them out based on my experience. I'm guessing, you probably have no issues with holding a conversation with someone for an hour. You can probably read most things and "get the gist" of it, but there are probably words you don't know. You can listen to people and understand, but radio programs and some TV can be a bit of a stretch.

If that sounds about right then you need to have a plan. The plan I would suggest is this.

You've heard of a food diary for dieters? Do the same thing for French. You should spend 2 weeks and track your interactions with French and French speakers. Note down both the successes and the failures. Note down what was lacking in your next two classes, why do you think you don't remember? Insufficient repetition? Write down when you either misunderstood or didn't understand something. Write down EVERYTHING it will help later.

After a couple of weeks, sit down and review your French diet. What didn't you understand? Why, in what context. Are there patterns you can spot? Are there locals with a heavy accent which you were not understanding? Is it just listening comprehension that is the problem? Is vocabulary retention the issue? etc, etc, etc.

Only once you've identified the problem(s) can you work on fixing them. Let's say you've discovered that your teacher only gives an explanation of a grammar point or vocabulary once and there is no "reinforcement" so you have forgotten everything by the end of the day. Perhaps a spaced repetition program on your phone like ANKI can help you to remember vocabulary or grammar points. Or maybe you discover that 80% of your problems are related to listening comprehension. But why? Is it because you lack vocabulary? Then try to read more. Perhaps listening comprehension problems are only related to a regional accent. Try to spend more time with people with that accent.

Honestly, I do agree that French is a pain in the proverbial. It is just a long list of exceptions occasionally interrupted by a rule. But you can win if you just remember that you are in the long game. It is a marathon, not a sprint. You're not ever going to speak or understand like a native 10-year-old. But you have the advantage of an adult mind and access to books!

There is a quote, normally attributed to Churchill, which says: "When you're going through hell, keep going." Because you don't want to stay there now, do you? :)
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Irena » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:08 pm

rdearman wrote:There is a quote, normally attributed to Churchill, which says: "When you're going through hell, keep going." Because you don't want to stay there now, do you? :)

Haha! That's a fantastic quote! That's what I needed to hear back when I was in Czech Hell. I'm happy to report that I'm not in Hell anymore. I still have a lot of work to do, but I definitely feel that I've gotten somewhere (somewhere usable) by now.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Irena » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:13 pm

Lawyer&Mom wrote:Maybe your French is already good enough? Language is a tool, maybe your French already meets your needs. That’s okay! Lots and lots and lots of people live their daily lives at a B2 level. It’s noticeable, but it’s not necessarily a problem. Don’t feel guilty or ashamed if you’d rather devote your extra energy to other activities that are more meaningful to you.

Eh, I don't know. If you're going to live in a country where your target language is spoken (especially if you're going to stay there long term), then anything lower than a strong (not borderline!) C1 is a handicap. You just cannot do all the things that you'd want to be able to do as a competent adult. The locals will look down on you, and you'll keep running into situations you cannot adequately handle. Now don't get me wrong, B2 is much better than nothing (and much better than B1), but I wouldn't stop there as an immigrant.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby Carmody » Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:59 am

rdearman
Honestly, I do agree that French is a pain in the proverbial. It is just a long list of exceptions occasionally interrupted by a rule. But you can win if you just remember that you are in the long game. It is a marathon, not a sprint. You're not ever going to speak or understand like a native 10-year-old. But you have the advantage of an adult mind and access to books!


Brilliant.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby orlandohill » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:32 am

You've already got past the basics stage, so now you can enjoy learning with TV, films, and books. Personally, I think that using the Listening-Reading (L-R) technique would be the most efficient use of your study time. For that you would listen to audio books while reading the corresponding French and English texts.

You might also like to read through the Refold guide, and join the Refold French learners Discord server. They have advice on making immersion learning fun.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby BeaP » Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:08 am

unionfan wrote:Immersion, reading, television, radio etc not working. Nonsensical and illogical language. Weekly French lessons. Nothing gets retained. I want it to just sink in like it does for the 10-year olds. I do not have the ability to drop everything to do with life to spend a daily hour on French. "that ignorant immigrant", difficult; I've got too much else to do with my time.


It's very hard to give advice based on this little information, but I'll try. I've quoted the (for me) important pieces above. Based on these I assume that your main problem is with accuracy. You communicate well, but you make grammar mistakes and you feel it embarrassing. I think just as for you, for the French people around you your work is much more important. I highly doubt that they form an opinion about you based on your grammar skills. On the other hand, I understand your wish to speak correctly.

Although there are methods that seem to be working almost universally, I think we need to know the way that suits us the most. You're not a linguist or a philosopher, you don't need to understand grammar. Grammar drills and school grammar instruction are beneficial for a lot of people, but they're clearly not suited for you. Drop them. We have a lot of things connected to learning ingrained in us. 12-18 years of school form a lot of habits and patterns. If you can't learn this way, try another one.

Choose good quality dialogues (3-5 minutes), understand them deeply, and listen to them as many times as possible. Try shadowing, recitation or act them out from memory. Make sure that they contain the grammar structures or expressions you need. (For example: the mp3 of Grammaire en dialogues.) Work with a limited number of dialogues, and repeat them consistently. 15 minutes a day in enough for focused studying, but you can listen to the dialogues any time throughout the day.

Another possibility: Choose short stories that illustrate/contain the important grammar points. Copy them on the side of a card and write the key words (no grammar) on the other side. With the help of the key words try to reproduce the original story orally. Check if you were correct. Again repeat the cards every once in a while and don't use too many.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby leosmith » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:41 pm

unionfan wrote:I hate this nonsensical and illogical language with such a passion that it is ruining my motivation to do anything else
Listen to yourself and quit immediately.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby rdearman » Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:52 pm

leosmith wrote:
unionfan wrote:I hate this nonsensical and illogical language with such a passion that it is ruining my motivation to do anything else
Listen to yourself and quit immediately.

Problem is they immigrated, so kinda stuck with it.
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Re: I hate French - help!

Postby luke » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:16 pm

unionfan wrote:So, I need help with motivation, changing-up the learning to something that works. Any and all ideas gratefully received :-)

Start listening to "success" literature in French all the time. Motivational speakers, etc. They are easier to understand, as they'll be telling you things you already know. If you can do that with earphones or on the radio when driving around, you'll have yourself immersed in motivation around the clock :)
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