Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Arnaud
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Arnaud » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:38 pm

There is a special glossary generally used by the former cyclists, like Jalabert or Voeckler (+the accent, it can be definitively tricky).
A lot of people watch The Tour just for the landscapes :)
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:35 pm

Arnaud wrote:There is a special glossary generally used by the former cyclists, like Jalabert or Voeckler (+the accent, it can be definitively tricky).
A lot of people watch The Tour just for the landscapes :)


Merci, Arnaud. Actually, although I began watching Le Tour for the cycling many years ago, in perhaps the last decade, it’s definitely been more for the scenery myself. Mind you, I still enjoy watching the competition!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:11 am

Reading StringerBell’s posts (from StringerBell’s log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9877&start=240) on difficulties with Polish and all the great advice humbles me. How did I ever think I might be able to learn Russian!! French is a breeze it seems compared to so many other languages. My ever-continuing struggles with French put into perspective against the backdrop of StringerBell’s Polish struggles makes me think, what the hell have I got to be concerned about, how stupid am I (French is child’s play), and wow there’s some incredibly smart and mentally tough people around these language learning parts. Hats off... StringerBell, if you’re reading this, good luck with whatever your language learning decisions turn out to be.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby StringerBell » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:38 pm

Thanks!

Btw, don't let my frustrations with Polish lead you to assume that French is an easy language. A lot of my frustration with Italian was due to me thinking of it as an easy language (so I had unrealistic expectations of how quickly I should be able to learn it). In reality there is nothing about Italian grammar that is easy. In fact, I've had moments over the past 2 years where I actually was thinking that Italian grammar was more complicated than Polish. (I'm sure in this regard French is comparable to Italian). And I think understanding spoken French is 100x harder than understanding Italian because in French you don't pronounce most letters and garble the rest. :lol: So the fact that you are now watching more and more TV in French and actually understanding it is a huge accomplishment. And since you seem to really do well with course books and structured formal study, you might do really well with Russian. So don't dismiss the idea on my account!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby MamaPata » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:38 am

Yeah, I don’t think that Russian is any “worse” than French. All languages have difficult bits and everyone finds those different. Your biggest problem with French seems to be your expectations for yourself and your determination to do more than you reasonably can. That will probably be a problem for any language you do unless you give yourself a break and adjust your expectations.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:51 pm

MamaPata wrote:Yeah, I don’t think that Russian is any “worse” than French. All languages have difficult bits and everyone finds those different. Your biggest problem with French seems to be your expectations for yourself and your determination to do more than you reasonably can. That will probably be a problem for any language you do unless you give yourself a break and adjust your expectations.


Hi MamaPata,

Can you be more specific? Do you think I should not aim for C2 French, or even C1? Do you think I’m already there?

A former examiner told me late last year that I could past C1 more than likely with much focus on writing specifically for the exam, that is learning how to write all the specific pieces of writing that one would be expected to produce in the exam. She felt C2 was out of my reach.

I have done well beyond the hours that the Alliance Française would have me believe I’d need to do to pass a C2 exam. However, as per the definitions found in Wikipedia for example for the CEFRL, C2 means I should be able to understand virtually any audio content and almost any reading. This is not the case.

When reading graded articles at the advanced C-levels, there are TONS of words and expressions... i mean TONNES!!! that I am unfamiliar with....

Is it because I’m busy and have many other commitments outside of language learning, that you’re just trying to say ‘go easy on yourself’. Are you suggesting that my intellect is not up to the task?

What do I need to adjust in terms of my expectations? Are you in fact telling me it’s out of my reach? I think these are fair questions to ask you, considering when you take account the above information, the conflicting ideas of C2 could lead any language learner to a state of confusion.

I think you’re more than likely being kind to me, most people here are, and feel that my level is well and truly C2, and perhaps it is. Perhaps I could pass a C2 exam given I learn how to produce the writings better. But why on earth are the definitions so ridiculously high-level then?

From wikipedia (re: C2) as per the CEFRL:
Can understand with ease virtually everything heard or read.
Can summarize information from different spoken and written sources, reconstructing arguments and accounts in a coherent presentation.
Can express themselves spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in the most complex situations.


Maybe you’re trying to tell me to stop being so hell bent on perfecting all the little things, move on and get on with the stuff that matters?

Anyway, thank you MamaPata for stopping by, would you mind putting all my guessing and speculation to rest? ;)
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby MamaPata » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:39 pm

Maybe you’re trying to tell me to stop being so hell bent on perfecting all the little things, move on and get on with the stuff that matters?


That’s it! Sorry, I assumed that was clear. I think you’re definitely already C1, I am sure you can get to C2 no problem. Honestly I think doing the exam might be a great thing for you, both to see where you are and what your strengths are, and to help yourself let it go. It’s just an exam, you’re doing it for yourself.

Nobody can know all of the words in a language - I had to look something up in English today. You’ve gotten to a great point with your French, you’ve made it part of your life, you’ve been able to translate for patients. That’s incredible.

But you keep setting yourself plans in which you do 3 hours of French study a day even though you have a job, a family, and a life. It just seems to me that you might feel a lot better and stick to a plan better if you lowered your expectations and just did the things you think are useful for maybe 45mins. That’s still loads! And then anything you do above that would be for the pleasure of it. Life is short, you should enjoy yourself.

If you want to learn Russian, fantastic! As a Russian learner, I think you should definitely do it and come chat in the Russian study group! But mostly I think you should only do it if you will enjoy it. If you will start it and then feel bad that you’re not perfect, why put yourself through that?
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:46 am

MamaPata wrote:
Maybe you’re trying to tell me to stop being so hell bent on perfecting all the little things, move on and get on with the stuff that matters?


That’s it! Sorry, I assumed that was clear. I think you’re definitely already C1, I am sure you can get to C2 no problem. Honestly I think doing the exam might be a great thing for you, both to see where you are and what your strengths are, and to help yourself let it go. It’s just an exam, you’re doing it for yourself.


Thanks MamaPata for taking the time to clarify. Yes, I think you are completely right. It’s just an exam, and it’s high-time I gave it a go.

MamaPata wrote:Nobody can know all of the words in a language - I had to look something up in English today. You’ve gotten to a great point with your French, you’ve made it part of your life, you’ve been able to translate for patients. That’s incredible.


Thanks again. Yeah, you’re right, I can’t know them all, and I think one of the main things that will help me in the lead up to the exam, is that I let go of those perfectionist tendencies and focus on exposure to LOTS of native French. Other than that, I really MUST focus on the exam preparation stuff AND do considerably more exchanges. This means, that as much as I’m finding Anki useful lately, I think I must let it go again, because I’m finding that I’m entering SO MANY WORDS/EXPRESSIONS into my decks, that I think I’m defeating the purpose - that is, lots of exposure! I’ve done much in the way of focused intensive study, and now although I must do some, I’ve got to be mindful of my tendencies to overdo it to the point my advancement comes to a standstill. Instead of looking for clarify through intricacies in the detail, I ought to be letting go and looking for clarity via the feel of the language, which requires more native content exposure (extensive reading, extensive watching, exchanges).

MamaPata wrote:But you keep setting yourself plans in which you do 3 hours of French study a day even though you have a job, a family, and a life. It just seems to me that you might feel a lot better and stick to a plan better if you lowered your expectations and just did the things you think are useful for maybe 45mins. That’s still loads! And then anything you do above that would be for the pleasure of it. Life is short, you should enjoy yourself.


I agree life’s too short, but I do actually enjoy the study (most of the time, that is). I will continue to do lots of study, especially in the lead up to the exam, but I’ll try to come back to your words and remind myself of your wisdom - that is that it doesn’t need to be painful, nor all-consuming. Thank you ;)

MamaPata wrote:If you want to learn Russian, fantastic! As a Russian learner, I think you should definitely do it and come chat in the Russian study group! But mostly I think you should only do it if you will enjoy it. If you will start it and then feel bad that you’re not perfect, why put yourself through that?


Learning Russian is actually a low priority for me. And since we’re on the topic (of wanderlust), my current order of languages to be learned in order of priority goes something like this:
French
Dutch
Spanish
German
Norwegian
Luxembourgish
Russian
Arabic
... so as you can see, the whole fanciful notion of learning Russian, is well at this point, just fantasy, and given my learning styles up to this point, it’s highly unlikely I’ll ever actually learn Russian if the language wish list remains in this order and my techniques don’t change/and or I don’t take away a lot from this whole French over half-decade marathon.

And since the French thing is taking so long, well this is what gives me the impetus from time to time to ‘complete’ the mission, that is, reach (and pass) a C2 exam. For perhaps only then I’ll truly be able to reflect on the distance I’ve covered and what I can definitely do to make the path more efficient for subsequent languages.

The whole not being perfect thing. I don’t understand how not to be this way. For me, learning means you put in the effort to learn the words, grammar and phrases you don’t understand along the way, and that seems pretty standard/normal for me in terms of language learning. Perhaps where I need to let go, is that I should learn to do so with extensive hours and learn to transition the ratio of intensive to extensive study perhaps sooner on my language learning journey, and not only perhaps sooner, but ensure the ratio is always moving towards predominantly extensive learning at some point (or at least more balanced that what it has been).

I guess this is all learning, i’m still learning how to learn from myself and others and I value your input highly, MamaPata. It’s left me feeling quite positive today about my French. Thank you, and I hope you’re going well yourself with your studies and enjoying Russian in particular!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby StringerBell » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:11 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:This means, that as much as I’m finding Anki useful lately, I think I must let it go again, because I’m finding that I’m entering SO MANY WORDS/EXPRESSIONS into my decks, that I think I’m defeating the purpose - that is, lots of exposure!


I have some unofficial N=1 results related to Anki that I thought I'd share. Your post about inputting a lot into Anki at the expense of more exposure made me think of it.

About 8-10 months ago I was doing an intensive 500 article challenge. Every time I came across a new verb, vocabulary word, or expression, I added it to a master list, along with sample sentences containing the word. Once I'd finished the challenge, I'd amassed a huge list - I can't even tell you how many pages; it was overwhelming. I've never been a fan of Anki, but I figured it made sense to put those words/phrases into Anki since they weren't very high frequency so I figured intentionally studying them with flashcards would be the only way to learn them.

I couldn't input everything, I basically entered things randomly. When I did this, I put a star next to the word as a reminder that I had already added it to Anki. I think I did maybe 1-2 months of reviews before I abandoned Anki. Just a few days ago, I decided to revisit that master list. I figured I wouldn't know anything from it, at best maybe I'd remember the things that I'd studied with Anki.

Result: After not looking at that master list in a really long time, I discovered something interesting. I didn't remember a single one of the words I'd studied in Anki UNLESS I'd come across that word in other sources. Just studying it with Anki alone wasn't enough for me to remember it. However, there were actually a lot of words that I'd never put into Anki that I did know; those were words that I'd come across in other native materials (books, TV) or I'd decided it was a really useful word/phrase and started using it, myself, occasionally. So it seems that Anki played a 0% role in my long term memory and what was most important was seeing those words elsewhere (even only once or twice) or taking the time to use that new word myself. In addition to trying to use some words during conversations, a few words on the list that I remembered were ones that I'd used to generate a bunch of sentences on my own (not just generic sentences, but ones that in some way related to my life or something I'd want to say). Interacting more intimately with these words was enough to anchor them in my memory.

I'm not trying to trash talk Anki; I think it has a place, and I think it can be really used efficiently. But realizing that studying with Anki alone just isn't enough (for me) has made me rethink whether it's worth my time or not. I still have an endless number of words to learn, so it would be nice to think that I could just to dump them into Anki, do a few reviews, problem solved. As tempted am I am by this solution, I can now see firsthand that Anki alone just isn't a good use of my time. Sure, writing a page of sentences takes much longer initially than flipping through an Anki card, but I think that time invested upfront pays off later on.

My results may or may not be true for you - I'm not trying to tell you to ditch Anki. But if you're feeling overwhelmed by the volume of what you're inputting, another option is to put these words on a list for future use and start working with just a few of them per day - incorporate them into something you're saying, write some sentences, Look up the history of the word, whatever. When I was writing journal entries in Italian, I'd pull out 4-5 new words, write them at the top of my page, and then try to use them in my writing.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:18 pm

StringerBell wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:This means, that as much as I’m finding Anki useful lately, I think I must let it go again, because I’m finding that I’m entering SO MANY WORDS/EXPRESSIONS into my decks, that I think I’m defeating the purpose - that is, lots of exposure!


I have some unofficial N=1 results related to Anki that I thought I'd share...


Thank you for sharing StringerBell. This is very relevant to my current situation. Unlike last time I ditched SRS programs, this time I am not sick of it, and I’m finding them quite fun in short bursts, and seemingly very useful. However I keep coming back to ‘efficiency’ and i’m doubting it’s efficiency. Even if it does work better for me than what you have explained you found yourself, StringerBell, I’m still wondering if it’s simply not effecient enough.

To speed up cards I would have to cut detail or do single word/expression cards. I don’t like this as I think it takes away from the experience and definitely renders the cards less useful, as opposed to full sentence cards with cloze deletion type-written responses. But still, speeding them up, just means I enter more cards, and many cards are being entered during other activities such as intensive reading. The end result is, during an intensive reading session I spend 45 minutes entering perhaps 20 words/phrases on a good day because I add a bit of detail, and I don’t actually read much.

Whereas without Anki, these articles already have word lists, I could wizz through the word lists testing my memory covering up the FR or the EN and testing my memory translating, and read the article and probably get through two or three times as much content. Since I own these magazines there’s no law against me never returning to review. So Anki seems too inefficient even if I am already familiar with these words/phrases from the articles (they are not devoid of context).

But, due to the way I study, it’s a bit of a dilemma for me, since even when I extensively read, I’m a slow reader, and I do not do it often enough because I prefer other activities or simply don’t have the time and must divide my time up with other language learning activities as well, so I do not come across the semi-rare words frequently enough. So for enough exposure to semi-rare words, I’d need to perhaps read a few hours every day, which leaves no time for other activities, which I either enjoy or must do for exam prep for example or to increase listening ability.

So this I feel leaves two options
1. Use Anki, but sparingly for entering words.
2. Do more extensive activities.

I think 2 is a better option for me, but I will still struggle to put it into practice.

It makes me ponder something though. How effective is it to learn words from say frequency dictionaries, illustrated dictionaries and other such resources in which the words are presented in isolation in either a thematic way, or annotated/illustrated format.

It also makes me ponder the fact that my English vocabulary size is by no means massive. I think it’s either average or below average a little, not that I run around looking stupid all the time, it’s just my honest self assessment. And I blame it on mostly having not read enough when I was younger. So perhaps there again is my answer - read more. But where to find the time.

I think I will dump Anki, for now, but I have my doubts about getting enough extensive activities in to acquire the vocabulary. But I want to attempt not to be concerned about it, as I should still acquire a good amount from my intensive reading with all the words lists, and I actually enjoy this. This is in fact a combination of ‘thematic’ word lists AND context. Something keeps telling me to do more of it - I need to listen to that inner voice and do so, without Anki for a while.
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