Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Serpent » Sun May 19, 2019 1:15 am

First of all, freedom of speech is not a right to be offered a platform.

And well, we already give more leeway in the logs than in other threads. The long-term members also tend to get a bit more leeway than someone who's never posted about language learning but suddenly wants to join a political discussion.
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Also, just reminding that the moderation policy should be discussed in private messages.
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The admins are the ones who have access to all features of the forum software (settings, user profiles etc). They also moderate, ie approve posts from newbies, delete spam or inflammatory comments, ban users. Moderators do the things I listed but we can't fix any technical problems. We can only fix individual posts, like incorrect tag use.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Sun May 19, 2019 1:57 pm

Let's all just move on please. There are about 7000 languages in the world and they aren't going to learn themselves.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 24, 2019 1:01 pm

It seems I'm going around in circles again. What follows is not criticism, nor depression, but is analysis, perhaps somewhat comical, as I think being humble about one's flaws is useful if one is to analyse oneself honestly... here goes... No need to provide solutions, but any response is of course welcome if you feel you want to, but as I've tried to 'save' many with the 'truth', I doubt there's any saving me from my crazy circles, they just are ;) Could I be the matrix? :?

I wish I had 12 hours a day to study languages.

Recently I posted all these fancy ideas (and fancy=quite good) about how to achieve my goal of C1/C2 in November in this thread https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5037&start=160 and while I think it's not a lost cause I can already see myself changing my mind.

I also fell into the trap of ranting again (see removed posts if you hadn't noticed, and frankly who'd care, it's a bit much, is it not?) and thought I was ranting for good reason (maybe I was?), whatever.

So here I am again going around in circles, my pattern of behaviour is predictable:

I decide to do French only to pass Dalf C1/C2, I devise awesome plans and must follow through by X date of DALF exam
Some awesome people provide awesome advice, which I can never be thankful enough for, again, thanks guys
I am then absolutely (and I intend to, honestly) committed to sticking to it... but...
...I don't

I then decide it's time to learn Dutch, or maybe change my routine
I do that... but...
I don't really commit to that so well either, or I do then....
I change my mind again because I'm not doing enough French, or not enough courses, or not enough reading, or not enough listening.... there's not enough time!

Then I rant, get into all kinds of knotty situations and attempt to back out of them while waving the flag of a freedom fighter who hides behind the same fears, rules and regulations as the majority of other people and although I want to comply to the rules of the forum, I also don't want to... and although I honestly respect the vast majority of people here (including moderators), I still wind up offending people and/ or pissing people off.

I back out of the rant, look ridiculous, which I don't mind too much, as being humble as I mentioned (and not egocentric) I feel is extremely valuable in coming to terms with one's imperfections and accepting one's reality as opposed to a bullshit ego-painted image of what I think I am, in which I discard the negative properties. No best have an honest picture of oneself. So yeah, I rant...

So then I come up with a new plan... declare I won't make any more declarations, and in doing so have just made another declaration, and I break it soon anyway.... and the cycle continues.

Oh and at some point I declare that my log is done or that I'm outta here and I'm back two minutes later.

Mind you as crazy (this my ego taking a defensive stance) as I seem in every day life, I am certainly one of the more level headed guys around. Believe that if you like, or don't. What's that say for the company I keep? :o

Solution? Quit my job? Leave my family? Study 12 hours a day. Hell no, I don't care too much for my job, but my family, I wouldn't depart for the world, so obviously that was in jest. Yes Serpent had it right, I should've sold my French courses. I have too many resources I am far too attached to, but like a hoarder (okay my ego does defend itself here again and argue that in the future actual paper French books/courses might not be available anymore or could be dumbed down to the extreme, so best hang onto them!).... hang on.. am I a hoarder? Well only with language learning content, in particular, courses. So, like a hoarder, that I actually am, I hoard language learning materials for rainy days (of insanity/perfectionism).

The solution is perhaps to come to terms with the fact that I am Peter Mollenburg, the fallible French learner who is extremely committed to improving French, holds himself back due to perfectionist tendencies and attempts to learn other languages too. That's okay, welcome to being me ;) and you know what, my intentions are good :) It's all about me you see!

On with the show...
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Fri May 24, 2019 6:42 pm

I can relate. There are so many French resources I would love to use all at once. I recently went through a TV binge, now it’s a reading streak, and of course there could/should be course work! And if there was enough time I’d love to do all three everyday. But there isn’t, so I don’t. But hey isn’t it great that there are so many fun things to do, even f you can’t do them all. We will never run out! That’s a good thing!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 24, 2019 11:41 pm

Lawyer&Mom wrote:I can relate. There are so many French resources I would love to use all at once. I recently went through a TV binge, now it’s a reading streak, and of course there could/should be course work! And if there was enough time I’d love to do all three everyday. But there isn’t, so I don’t. But hey isn’t it great that there are so many fun things to do, even f you can’t do them all. We will never run out! That’s a good thing!


Indeed, Lawyer&Mom, and thanks for dropping by, and thanks to those as well who are just following along this for this seriously nutty ride that is the ridiculous show of PM. You are certainly correct, Lawyer&Mom. With French there is so much available, and it's a point worth making as I can never seem to get through everything I want to.

So, the question is, do I want to be the King of Courses, the floundering twitt that goes around in circles forever, or Peter Mollenburg, the one that made it to C2.... ummm... eventually, which means I must realise that as there is just so much out there, I need to pick and choose depending on my weaknesses and my goals, as opposed to feeling the necessity to just complete everything. Wise words PM, but many a wise word by PM has led to very little action, and action speaks louder than words. So, I just might keep going around in circles anyway.... or not!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 30, 2019 9:42 pm

Thought I’d present a summary of my language activity over the last 10 months (French back to July 2018, Dutch to when I began in October 2018):

FRENCH

July 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 19 hours, 54 minutes
Audio courses: 18 hours, 53 minutes
Courses: 15 hours, 37 minutes

Total learning time: 82 hours, 42 minutes
Daily average: 2 hours, 39 minutes

----------------------------------
August 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 29 hours, 19 minutes
Television: 27 hours, 8 minutes
Audio courses: 10 hours, 42 minutes

Total learning time: 95 hours, 40 minutes
Daily average: 3 hours, 5 minutes

----------------------------------
September 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 19 hours, 26 minutes
Television: 14 hours, 26 minutes
Audio courses: 8 hours, 43 minutes

Total learning time: 62 hours, 23 minutes
Daily average: 2 hours, 6 minutes

----------------------------------
October 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 17 hours, 11 minutes
Television: 11 hours, 11 minutes
Courses: 11 hours, 0 minutes

Total learning time: 54 hours, 19 minutes
Daily average: 1 hour, 45 minutes

----------------------------------
November 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 9 hours, 6 minutes
Television: 6 hours, 37 minutes
Podcasts: 6 hours, 2 minutes

Total learning time: 27 hours, 27 minutes
Daily average: 54 minutes

----------------------------------
December 2018

Top 3 activities:
Courses: 22 hours, 45 minutes
Extensive reading: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Television: 4 hours, 58 minutes

Total learning time: 36 hours, 58 minutes
Daily average: 1 hour, 11 minutes

----------------------------------
January 2019

Top 3 activities:
Audio courses: 14 hours, 1 minute
Extensive reading: 10 hours, 15 minutes
Television: 4 hours, 41 minutes

Total learning time: 38 hours, 34 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 14 minutes

----------------------------------
February 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 20 hours, 26 minutes
Audio courses: 4 hours, 29 minutes
Television: 3 hours, 5 minutes

Total learning time: 33 hours, 21 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 11 minutes

----------------------------------
March 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 9 hours, 27 minutes
Audio courses: 7 hours, 39 minutes
Television: 4 hours, 49 minutes

Total learning time: 29 hours, 58 minutes
Daily average: 58 minutes

----------------------------------
April 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 16 hours, 23 minutes
Television: 11 hours, 13 minutes
Courses: 4 hours, 21 minutes

Total learning time: 35 hours, 21 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 10 minutes

----------------------------------
May 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 18 hours, 33 minutes
Television: 16 hours, 35 minutes
Intensive reading: 7 hours, 5 minutes

Total learning time: 53 hours, 53 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 44 minutes

----------------------------------

DUTCH

October 2018

Top 2 activities:
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 3 hrs, 13 min
Courses: 2 hrs, 13 min

Total learning time: 7 hrs, 51 min
----------------------------------
November 2018

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 9 hrs, 43 min
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 1 hr, 19 min

Total learning time: 11 hrs, 14 min
----------------------------------
December 2018

Top 2 activities:
Courses: 8 hrs, 11 min
Audio courses: 3 hrs, 13 min

Total learning time: 14 hrs, 28 min
----------------------------------
January 2019

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 4 hrs, 30 min
Courses: 3 hrs, 17 min

Total learning time: 11 hrs, 3 min
----------------------------------
February 2019

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 7 hrs, 56 min
Television: 50 min

Total learning time: 9 hrs, 6 min
----------------------------------
March 2019

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 8 hrs, 34 min
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 1 hr, 47 min

Total learning time: 12 hrs, 21 min
----------------------------------
April 2019

Top 2 activities:
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 10 hrs, 28 min
Television: 3 hrs, 24 min

Total learning time: 16 hrs, 23 min
----------------------------------
May 2019

Only activity:
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 6 hrs, 13 min

Total learning time: 6 hrs, 13 min
----------------------------------

Comments

* Highest months in hours studied highlighted (August 2018 for French and April 2019 for Dutch)
* August 2018 95 hours for French - at this point still considering DALF C1 or C2 Nov 2018, changed plans soon after.
* Hours of French in particular considerably drop off when preparing to move house and once out of house and not in a set routine (lots of moving around).
* Hours of French increase May 2019 as becoming more settled in new house
* Arabic studies Jan-March 2019 totaling a bit over 15 hours.

Edit: ** I think it's actually pretty safe to say that extensive reading is really my main method of learning in terms of time dedicated to the activity. Yes, most of the time it's children's books, as I read to the kids most days, but in terms of having comprehensible input, it's perfect, as although they are childrens's books, there are still plenty of new phrases, expressions and words, but not enough to severely interrupt the flow of reading. At a guess I probably have 95 to 99% comprehension with most of the content I read. That's considered optimal range for learning I believe (according to some, not all). Second to reading, most of the time, I'm listening to large amounts of audio either via TV or through podcasts (actually, usually both). Interesting. I think we can conclude that courses are NOT my main method of learning, but an area I consider very important to my learning. Yes, it used to be my main method, but I think for more than a year (possibly much longer), courses have not been my main method, but an important aspect of my learning.

Edited to re-adjust May 2019 totals, as now 31st May and the day is at a close having done a little more language learning activity since I initially posted numbers earlier in the day.
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Fri May 31, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Serpent » Fri May 31, 2019 2:10 am

I don't even remember suggesting that you sell/give away your French courses :D Surely I didn't say all of them? Pick a couple of your favourites and get rid of the rest. Maybe not even permanently - you can just store them where you can't easily access them, and preferably where someone (like friends or family) reminds you that you were going to cut down on the courses and do real French :D Consider (re)reading what Khatzumoto wrote about keeping native materials easily available.
(I don't believe there are any reasons to worry about textbook availability, at least if you don't mind buying them used... you're not the only learner with a huge collection of resources)

Also, a couple of links from Benny's blog:
https://www.fluentin3months.com/solve-problems/
https://www.fluentin3months.com/mindtraps/ (new to me as well)

As for your stats... I expected "worse" tbh :D As long as these are not beginner level textbooks, you're doing fine.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 31, 2019 3:24 am

Serpent wrote:I don't even remember suggesting that you sell/give away your French courses :D Surely I didn't say all of them?


I’m not so sure now whether you specified or were just generalising and I assumed that ‘sell your courses’ meant all of them.

Serpent wrote:Pick a couple of your favourites and get rid of the rest. Maybe not even permanently - you can just store them where you can't easily access them, and preferably where someone (like friends or family) reminds you that you were going to cut down on the courses and do real French :D


Actually, that’s sort of what I did. some were packed away at my house, some at my parents, where they were frequently observed (in their large plastic storage containers). Now almost all of them are back with me due to our plans changing and living in a bigger house. Still, I can’t see myself selling them when I bought the vast majority new when I had more disposable income (and less sense), and were I to sell them and “need” some again, repurchasing even a handful would be too costly and hard to justify when our family has greater needs than more language courses.

The most reasonable and logical approach from here is to store them while there is storage space and it is free/cheap. And I just need to use this resources strictly sensibly (i.e. not be overcome by course lust).

Still, had I my time over, I would absolutely most definitely never purchase a course I wasn’t ready to use. Live and learn! Your selling suggestions, Serpent, draws on this wisdom - don’t collect language leaning material that has little to no functional use on improving my language skills and secondly, that’s going to distract me from moving on. Still, when I purchased them, part of me did feel I was going to complete them all in not so long of a time.

Serpent wrote:Consider (re)reading what Khatzumoto wrote about keeping native materials easily available.
(I don't believe there are any reasons to worry about textbook availability, at least if you don't mind buying them used... you're not the only learner with a huge collection of resources)


I agree. And not only to I have plenty of French courses, but plenty of books, ebooks, websites, etc.

Serpent wrote:Also, a couple of links from Benny's blog:
https://www.fluentin3months.com/solve-problems/
https://www.fluentin3months.com/mindtraps/ (new to me as well)


Thanks!

Serpent wrote:As for your stats... I expected "worse" tbh :D As long as these are not beginner level textbooks, you're doing fine.


Cheers ;)
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Skynet » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:11 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:So here's my lists, beginning with courses I have completed in French which has hardly budged much in a very long time:

FRENCH COURSES COMPLETED

1 First Thousand Words in French
2 Hugo French in 3 Months
3 Colloquial French
4 Usborne French Dictionary for Beg's
5 Michel Thomas Total French
6 Michel Thomas Perfect French
7 Michel Thomas Masterclass French
8 Pimsleur French I
9 Fluenz French I
10 Pimsleur French II
11 French all talk - Linguaphone
12 Learn French with Paul Noble
13 Rocket French Premium
14 Fluenz French 2
15 Mastering French 1 (FSI units 1-6)
16 Pimsleur French III
17 Living Language Essential French
18 Pimsleur French IV
19 Fluenz French 3
20 Rocket French Premium Plus
21 Assimil New French with Ease
22 Rocket French Platinum
23 Pimsleur French V
24 Teach Yourself Get Started in French
25 Fluenz French 4
26 DLI : Headstart for Belgium
27 Living Language Intermediate French
28 CLE : Gram Prog du FR (débutant)
29 Assimil Using French
30 Glossika EN-FR Level 1
31 Glossika EN-FR Level 2
32 Glossika EN-FR Level 3

What follows are a handful of vocabulary resources. They are not part of my must do course list, they are side projects, that can even be worked on alongside native content here in there in the process of acquiring more vocabulary in an abstract way. I expect to be referring to/using these vocab resources sporadically throughout my French journey, courses or not.

VOCABULARY RESOURCES
1. Michel Durand's Words, Phrases & Sentences
2. French Vocabulary Lists
3. CLE : Vocabulaire Progressif du Français (débutant)
4. CLE : Vocabulaire Progressif du Français (intermédiaire)
5. A Frequency Dictionary of French (5000 words)
6. Bilingual French Visual Dictionary (6000 words)
7. FR - EN/NL speakers (9000 wds)
8. CLE : Vocabulaire Progressif du Français (avancé)
9. Barron's Mastering French Vocab.
10. Van Dale Groot Beeldwoordenboek (EN/NL/DE/FR/ES) (22,500 words)
11. Mot à Mot New Advanced French Vocabulary
12. Streetwise French Dict / Thesarus
13. Dirty French
14. CLE : Vocabulaire Progressif du Français (perfectionnement)

And here is my massive list of courses. I'm currently working on numbers 1, 2 and 3 as of the last couple of days. I'm not focusing on any components of courses that I know like the back of my hand. In the beginning sections of numbers 1 and 2 for example I'm flying through pages as it's stuff I've covered before, i'm just mining for unkown words and contstructions, avoiding much of the English waffle in Vis-à-vis and not caring too much about detail at the beginner's stages. Unlike in the past, I will not listen to every piece of audio, read every piece of text nor do every exercise. When the content becomes harder I'll slow down and focus.

Tous Mes Manuels et Programmes d’ordinateur :
1. Living Language Advanced French
2. Vis-à-vis
3. Practice Makes Perfect : The French Subjunctive
4. Fluenz French 5
5. La prononciation française pour de vrai (DVD)
6. The Ultimate French Verb Review and Practice
7. Cortina Method : Conv. FR in 20 Lessons
8. The Berlitz Self Teacher French
9. CLE : Gram. en dialogues (déb)
10. Assimil French Without Toil
11. Le Mauger Bleu I : up to Leçon 25 (piste 5, 02,26)
12. Tell Me More (Beginner’s)
13. CLE : Gram Prog du FR (1inter)
14. CLE : Gram. en dialogues (inter)
15. Le Mauger Bleu II
16. Hugo French Advanced
17. Tell Me More (Int-Adv)
18. Colloquial French 2
19. French in Action : up to Leçon 19
20. Le Français par la méthode nature
21. FSI Basic French Vol 1: up to Piste 60, 12,12, A-7
22. Tell Me More (levels 1-10)
23. Le Mauger Bleu III
24. French Verbs Made Simple(r)
25. TY French Grammar
26. The Ultimate FR Rev. & Practice
27. Pract. makes Per. Adv French Gram.
28. DLI French Basic Course
29. CLE : Gram. en dialogues (avancé)
30. CLE : Gram Prog du FR (avancé)
31. Tell Me More (Business/advanced)
32. FSI Basic French Vol 2
33. Linguaphone Français Deuxième étape
34. Peace Corps - Le français basé sur la compétence : Avancé
35. Assimil Business French
36. CLE : Gram Prog du FR (perfect.)
37. French in Action (3rd ed.)
38. Peace Corps - Le français basé sur la compétence : Supérieure
39. Le Mauger Bleu IV
40. Le français des infirmiers
41. Streetwise French
42. Learn French with Jokes 1
43. Learn French with Jokes 2
44. Production écrite : niv. B1 / B2
45. Réussir le Delf B2
46. Préparation à l’examen du Delf B2
47. Activités pour le cadre européen commun de référence : niveau b2
48. Production écrite : niv. C1 / C2
49. Réussir le Dalf : niveaux C1 et C2
50. Dalf C1 : Tests complets corrigés


WOW! I have gone through many courses, but this just takes the cup! Incredible! What's even more unusual is listing and intending to complete DLI Basic, FSI Basic and French In Action.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:39 pm

It's interesting you know. Just the other day I had been discussing the coincidences that arise in life. The ones that are too coincedental to really be a coincidence. In fact I was on the phone to her as I was on my way to work, 3 hours from where we are living currently.

Then I seemingly had my own coincidence, or was it fate? Was it an alignment of energies? Was it nothing of the kind. Either way I was very pleased with myself.

So I started work on a surgical ward. At one point a guy walked passed on the corridor... he seemed foreign. Although I later found out he wasn't European, my ponderings at the time were - 'is this guy French, or perhaps Spanish?'. Anyway, then some minutes later... and I tell you, there are certain words in the English language that are burned into a kind of heightened sense, like a shark may smell a drop of blood from some ridiculous distance away. One of those words is "French". I can hear jumbles of words, seemingly incomprehensible mutterings, but then I will hear "FRENCH" stand out much clearer. So yeah, some minutes later I hear some mutterings, from I believe another nurse close to where I'm working, a few rooms away, and I hear that word stand out, or I think I do. Yes it stood out, but the other words were of little importance so I'm unsure I smelled that drop of blood correctly. The nurse comes out, introduces herself to me near the nurses station and I ask, did you just say something about "French"? Yes, she says, do you speak French? I tell her I do... and the rest is history.

Turns out the patient was a young French girl who's level of English was not so great. She was here on exchange and was, well having some medical problems and, well, translations were needed. I was asked to help. I chatted briefly to her, and although I was asked to translate the menu as well, turns out I missed that opportunity as she could read the hospital menu quite well in English (should've jumped at that when I had the chance, didn't matter). So the Consultant needed to have a bit of a serious discussion with her and her host parents and I was called in to translate (I offered my services for this, early when the staff found out that I spoke French, and they were seeking someone to assist). Anyway, it was so much fun I guess is the best way to put it, to translate for the consultant and the patient. Mostly it was the consultant (i.e. the doctor) explaining things to the patient in English and I was translating them into French for the patient and in turn translating her French answers back to English.

To some this may be quite the every day kind of thing, for me it was a really cool situation to find myself in. French speakers are rare in our hospitals, and those who cannot speak English even rarer. Furthermore, French speakers with poor or little English requiring translation are much rarer again. Then, to be in proximity of such rare circumstances... and be able to translate, well that's just.. a coincidence? I dunno. I think there's more to the world than chance, more than accidental occurences.

I don't draw this conclusion based on this one (series of) event(s), or admittedly something that could really just be coincidence, as I've always felt this way anyway. I'm not saying that I strictly believe in fate either, but I think I agree with my friend, that if you're open in life to certain messages, they are there, and perhaps it's similar with events. I think it's something like energies attracting other people and occurences like ions, like magnets, polarities and so on. Some call it synchronicity.

Another occurence a couple of months back. Before, what we thought was going to be our soon departure for Saudi Arabia, I had been trying to contact an old friend, but we were both bad at communicating by phone. I'd leave messages, then he'd call six months later or a year... that kind of thing. Anyway, over the course of perhaps a week, he kept popping up in my mind, and I kept thinking/feeling, I'd really like to make contact with this friend before we leave. We were moving about from place to place for a couple of months at that stage, always within reach of my work. This time we were in an area of the state I don't think I'd ever been, staying for a couple of weeks. One day we wound up in a neighbouring town, and there was a market on. I ran into his girlfriend at the market, she found him and we caught up. It just seemed uncanny. I had even been expressing to my wife a desire to catch up with the guy the couple of days preceding stumbling upon him. I dunno, too coincidental for me.

Anyway after that shift at the hospital, two days later I was on the same ward. The patient had left. I was there for 16 hours! I think it was the longest and hardest shift I ever did in my life. By the time I drove home 3 hours, I arrived home at 2.15am. Sometimes, healthcare just seems insane to me, and this is in western country with a decent health care system. How do nurses and doctor's cope in some other countries??!! Anyway, I was leading to the point that studying has been difficult, but I am still studying when I can and still aiming for a C-level exam end of year. I don't know where 'aiming' will lead, but I'll certainly keep plugging along. I've gone a little Anki crazy lately too, which is really unusual for me, but i'm just going to go with it.

That's it for now.

Edit: Oh and I received a copy of Assimil - Le Néerlandais des Affaires today. I've been digging around for this for quite a while now, so it's great to finally get a copy - purchased online, second hand but in much better condition (almost like new) than I expected. It's also a hardcover, so that's nice. One day I hope to put it to good use! So, what am I doing buying more courses. Hey, this is Assimil we're talking about, courses that I really get a lot out of... AND it's super-rare, so it just had to be done!
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