Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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Elsa Maria
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Elsa Maria » Wed May 15, 2019 4:07 pm

I'm excited to read that you are venturing into Latin! I know I grumbled about the Cambridge book, but it grew on me. I just finished the text this week. It took my class nine months to go through the book, but of course it could have been done at any pace and what constitutes "doing" a textbook varies as well. I kept Latin as a 3rd place language all year, and I feel that my pace has been very leisurely. I should note that I started as a false beginner.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Wed May 15, 2019 11:18 pm

POLISH:

Let's kick things off with a couple of quick questions:

1) by mógł = mógłby? I keep coming across both versions and I'm assuming that they are interchangeable.

2) Cała przyjemność po mojej stronie (the pleasure is all mine). Does anything change if it's a woman speaking vs. a man, or is it always written exactly the same, regardless of who is speaking?

I was tense and dealing with a lot of annoying and stressful stuff, so I was convinced I wouldn't be able to do any Polish, but I decided instead to just do easy stuff and try to use it as a way to relax. So, I watched a few episodes of Rodzinka.pl, and did about 1 hour on Memrise. I realized that if I prop a piece of paper on the edge of my computer, I don't see the little timer counting down which makes it much better for me.

In one of the episodes of Rodzinka.pl that I watched today, the word środowisko popped up. After having seen it on Memrise, then writing it here on my log, and then hearing it in the show, I might now actually be able to remember it. So maybe Memrise isn't such a waste after all! :D

ITALIAN:

As I think I mentioned (did I?) I am rereading my novel Noi Siamo Infinito from the beginning, but intensively. I can see this will take quite a long time. There's not even that much new stuff, but what I do find I am spending a long time with, writing example sentences, discussing them with my husband, trying to use them, myself, so it's very slow-going.

I learned a really useful expression today from doing this:
passarsela peggio = to do worse / to be in a worse situation / to be worse off
passarsela meglio = to do better / to be in a better situation / to be better off


Mi sembra che un sacco di persone se la passino (<congiuntivo triggered by "mi sembra che") molto peggio.
(It seems to me that a lot of people are worse off.)

I also found out that "sto bene" only means "I'm ok" health wise, as in, I'm feeling ok. If you want to say "I'm ok" with the meaning that things are going well in general, you'd use the construction from above:

Ce la passiamo abbastanza bene = We're doing ok
Me la passo bene = I'm doing ok

*I'm going to make an effort to use "me la passo bene" from now on.

I'm also doing some scriptorium with phrases and sentences that I'd like to be able to have at my command like:
-Ogni tanto mi capita di pensarci. (I think about it once in a while)
-Non è messo così male, vero? (It's not that bad, right?)
-Faccio fatica a ricordare. (It's hard to remember)
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Thu May 16, 2019 5:55 am

StringerBell wrote:1) by mógł = mógłby? I keep coming across both versions and I'm assuming that they are interchangeable.

This question may be quick, but the answer probably will not ;) But I will try to do my best.
"by mógł" is rather something is done that he will be able to do something
"Przynoszę mu wodę, by mógł się napić"
It could also "żeby mógł" be used. But native speaker would most often simply say "Przynoszę wodę, żeby się napił". But in the sentence with "by mógł" you stress that you bring him water to provide him the possibility of drinking. In the simpler form, it simply states that the water is for him to drink or stresses the fact that he is thirsty and will drink something.
Now compare that with the sentence:
"Przynoszę mu wodę, mógłby się jej napić" - it suggests that you provide him the possibility, but probably he does not want to. In the past tense:
"Przyniosłem mu wodę, mógłby się jej napić" - It even suggests that you provided him the possibility, he didn't do it and you are little impatient because of that.

If further clarification will be necessary, do not hesitate to ask.

StringerBell wrote:2) Cała przyjemność po mojej stronie (the pleasure is all mine). Does anything change if it's a woman speaking vs. a man, or is it always written exactly the same, regardless of who is speaking?

Yes, it is always written exactly the same.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri May 17, 2019 12:29 am

cjareck wrote:This question may be quick, but the answer probably will not ;)


Just when I thought I was starting to get a grip on Polish...I realize that I don't know anything!

Thank you for explaining those differences. I'm not sure I understand the nuances, but at least I know that they aren't interchangeable.

*********
POLISH:

I've been feeling pretty crappy, so I decided to do very low-energy stuff. I watched a few episodes of Rodznika.pl and did some Memrise. They are not really showing me much in the way of new words, but I still find it useful. As a beginner, Memrise and Duolingo and those sorts of apps just didn't work for me at all. But as an intermediate, I find the reinforcement to be useful. I am saying everything out loud, so I'm trying to get in some pronunciation practice...I find that saying things out loud helps me to remember things more than saying them silently in my head.

In trying to assess my comprehension with the Rodzinka.pl episodes...I think I'd say that 20% of the scenes I can understand very easily (full or near full comprehension). 60% of the scenes I understand enough words that with facial expressions, body language, and context I can follow what's going on, even though I'm losing plenty of words or even whole sentences. And 20% I don't understand at all, or I think I'm understanding, but then someone says something and the other person laughs or gets pissed and suddenly I realize that I have no idea what's going on. So far, I've watched 26 episodes (all are without subtitles). I think I'm still in the 1st season, and I'm very curious to see how my comprehension is once I get past the 10th season.

ITALIAN:

Intensively rereading my novel. It's a constant reminder of how much I haven't automatized (is that a word?) even if I can easily understand it passively. Not much else new to report.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm

POLISH:

I meant to ask about this yesterday but I forgot. I learned a new expression on Memrise, and I wanted to check that it's a legit expression that I should actually know and maybe even use myself:

palnąłem straszne głupstwo = Polish equivalent of the English expression I put my foot in my mouth
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Fri May 17, 2019 1:30 pm

I don't know the English idiom, so I can't confirm or deny. Polish sentence means literally: "I said something terribly stupid". "Palnąć" in that context means something like: to say without prior thinking or consideration
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri May 17, 2019 10:42 pm

ITALIAN:

I just learned something about Italian that is blowing my mind. I wanted to write it out here while I still understand it well enough to re-explain it in my own words; maybe it will help me to remember it long term.

In the last hour, I was able to just ask my husband about things as I came across them in my novel, which is something I really like to do because it's instant feedback/explanation, though I don't get to do it too often. I happened to notice that in a sentence, a verb that isn't reflexive was used reflexively:

fumare = to smoke

So I would expect the sentence to be: Patrick e Sam hanno fumato qualche sigaretta. Except the sentence used the verb reflexively: Patrick e Sam si sono fumati qualche sigaretta. When I saw that, I called out across the room: "Hey, fumare isn't a reflexive verb, why is it being used reflexively?"

Apparently, with lots of verbs that aren't normally reflexive, you can make them reflexive to show that the person is taking a particular pleasure in doing that thing. So in the case of the example sentence above, they are really taking pleasure in the cigarettes they're smoking.

This is can be used with a ton of verbs, for example:
-Mi sono mangiata una feta di torta = I ate a slice of cake. (and really liked it)
-Mi sono fatto una bella dormita = I had a good night's sleep. (finally, I got to sleep as much as I needed, and I woke up feeling really good)
-Mi sono fatto un giro in moto = I took a nice ride on my motorbike.

The normal verb to drink isn't reflexive (bere). So if you wrote/said:
-Ho bevuto un bel bicchiere di vino, it could be either that you drank a big glass of wine, or a good glass of wine. But if you wrote/said:
-Mi sono bevuto un bel bicchiere di vino, there's no doubt: you drank some really awesome wine that you savored.

***Making regular verbs into reflexive verbs as a way to show that the person really got enjoyment out of what they're doing is something that occurs colloquially, it is not normally found in novels or anything "formal".
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat May 18, 2019 8:42 pm

POLISH:

I wanted to make an observation about Memrise that I meant to mention earlier but kept forgetting.

I'm blowing through the Memrise advanced Polish course pretty quickly because I'm already very familiar with most of the words they are showing. It's also very easy for me to put the words in order when shown full sentences, because I already have a feel for how sentences are/can be structured, so I'm not struggling with the word order (yay!). But, if I'm shown a word that I've never seen before, I can only remember it in the context of Memrise (I can't remember it later on). However, if I see a new term on Memrise and then soon afterward I come across that word elsewhere, I easily recognize it and can identify the meaning. So, it seems to me that (for me) the most effective way to use a gaming-app like this is after I already have a good amount of exposure to the language and while working with native media.

Today, Memrise showed me płaszcz przeciwdeszczowy (raincoat) . I already knew płaszcz (coat), and I already knew przeciw (against) and deszcz (rain), so it was pretty obvious what this term meant. However, after 100 repeats on Memrise, I wasn't confident that I could come up with this term on my own because it felt just a little too complicated. Then... płaszcz przeciwdeszczowy popped up in an episode of Rodzinka.pl later the same day. Somehow that was enough for me to be able to remember it effortlessly now. It's really a magical combination when you can combine Anki/flashcarding/some language app with seeing the word used in real life. The same thing happened with the word środowisko (environment), which I mentioned previously.

I'm also recognizing some words now on Memrise that I came across in Mikołaj stories many months ago and then never saw again, like: bałwan (snowman). Connecting the word to a story makes it much easier to remember. Without some kind of context like a story, I just can't remember anything, and this is why I think these kind of apps don't work for me as a beginner.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby AndyMeg » Sat May 18, 2019 9:51 pm

StringerBell wrote:However, if I see a new term on Memrise and then soon afterward I come across that word elsewhere, I easily recognize it and can identify the meaning. So, it seems to me that (for me) the most effective way to use a gaming-app like this is after I already have a good amount of exposure to the language and while working with native media.

That's basically what I use Memrise for. I don't expect to directly learn the words or phrases/sentences from Memrise. What I expect is that Memrise helps me get exposure and direct my focus to some words or sentences/phrases I'm interested in, so that when I randomly encounter them while interacting with native media, then I can have an easier time recognizing them and remembering them in the long term. Because of this I tend to use the "Learn mode" a lot more than any of the other modes (like the "classic review mode" or the "quick review mode", for example --> although the "quick review mode" can give you exposure to lots of words in a short period of time, but the ticking clock is too stressful for me most of the time, so I don't use it as often).
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Sat May 18, 2019 10:08 pm

StringerBell wrote:[bałwan (snowman).

This is actually more complicated. I learned this last year or sth like that. "Bałwan" originally was a statue of Slavic pagan idol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%82wan
and the name for snowman is "Bałwan" to show disrespect to pagan idols. I'm adding this as a curiosity because not many native speakers know about that.
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