Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[PeterMollenburg]

Wow, I didn't even know they made that many courses!

I have some questions, and I hope this doesn't seem like criticism, because I am asking out of genuine curiosity and I don't want you to assume there is any kind of judgment on my part (I'm actually really impressed that you've been able to do so many courses!)

1) Do you feel that you got something really worthwhile (skill increases) in doing those 32 beginner courses that you wouldn't have still gotten from doing 5 or 10 of them?

Well, for me, yes, but I don't think it would be the same for others. We all learn differently, and in some cases very differently. Still, from my perspective it was worthwhile doing this many courses. Although there were absolutely some that I could've done without, perhaps 3 or 4. For the most part, though, they acted as reinforcement and clarification. I was not going to read books, at least not in the beginning (I didn't plan to, but my plans changed, thankfully), so repetition via other courses was necessarily for me.

However doing more beginner courses from here on is not efficient, even if I'm skipping past major sections because I already know them. There will remain some that I will still get a lot out of, but for the most part it's now a very inefficient way to use my time. I'd be better off scrapping the first 10 or 15 courses and moving onto upper intermediate and advanced materials, but I'm not going to do that.

2) If you had to start from scratch knowing what you know now, would you have done anything differently? (not done certain courses at all, done them in a different order, done more courses, etc...)

Absolutely. Although the courses have been of great help to me, or more precisely, my use of the courses, I wouldn't do it the same way with what I know now. Problem is, it takes trial and error and experience to learn these things, and if I were to turn back the time I'd no longer have that experience, that trial and error, the need to learn things the hard way. Hypothetically speaking however, let's say I did (have that 'internal instinct' or experience without having studied yet), then I'd decrease the amount of beginner's courses (there are definitely quality courses that must stay, and more than a few beginner's courses are still worthwhile), and introduce native content later. Why? Because, despite it helping, it's also steered me from my mission. To complete them. I"m now going back covering ground I should've covered many moons ago, but no point having regrets, I actually am and have learned a lot from the process and a lot from introducing native content here and there, but les courses would've been better, indeed, mainly at the beginner's level.

Perhaps it would be better to ask whether I'll take the same approach with subsequent languages. The answer is yes and no. Yes, because I already own a good deal of Spanish and Dutch courses in particular. Mind you, nowhere near as many as I own in French. In fact I have quite a deal less in terms of Spanish courses compared to French, but the amount of content is huge, due to the size of the courses (Destinos for example). However, less course material would be suitable, as I'd know much more about how I'm learning and the direction I need to go - towards native content eventually. Also, French I found required a LOT of time focused on phonetics, which would not be required to the same degree with Spanish or Dutch (or German), languages I wish to study in future, because I find their phonetics simpler. For French much repetition was needed to feel like I got my head and my tongue around the phonetics to the extent that I felt/feel was and is acceptable (as close to native-like as I can get).

Another thing that I would change is not buy courses too far ahead of time. I have TONS of courses (as you can see) that I've never attempted, because I thought it'd take, well, not that long to knock them over, one at a time. I was wrong. Now when it comes to learning subsequent languages, all my content is in almost in English. I hadn't thought that through. I would've been better off wating to buy courses around the time I need them because:
1. I wouldn't have mountains of books sitting around that I have to lug around every time I move.
2. I'd buy more up to date content.
3. I'd buy more based on my current needs (i.e. realise I'm weak on the subjunctive, buy a course on the subjunctive).
4. I'd buy more French based resources for my next language and then more French + 3rd language based content for my 4th language etc (i'm counting English as my 1st language).

3) What do you feel are your strengths and weaknesses in French at this point? In knowing that your level is close to (if not already at C1) some of the courses you still want to do seem like they are very much below your current level (unless I'm mistaken) so I'm curious to hear what skills/problem areas you think these courses will improve.

Specifically, what do you think these courses can offer you at your current level: Cortina Method : Conv. FR in 20 Lessons, The Berlitz Self Teacher French, Assimil French Without Toil, Tell Me More (Beginner’s), Le Français par la méthode nature, FSI Basic French Vol 1: up to Piste 60, 12,12, A-7, Tell Me More (levels 1-10), French Verbs Made Simple(r), TY French Grammar, DLI French Basic Course, FSI Basic French Vol 2

Most of the courses you've listed above won't offer that much to my current level. I'm OCD about this and just want to complete them, basically. Still, DLI and FSI will still offer some automaticity to areas of my spoken French that don't have it, as there's likely topics in these courses and set phrases I don't use, which will be handy.

My verb conjugation of some less common verbs are not on point, by a long shot, in fact. I need to work that, as I've not really ever done a course that focuses only on verb conjugations.

Some courses seemingly below my level, such as Assimil French Without Toil, can actually help a lot. I shadow almost everything that's new/newish, it helps my pronunciation and adds to activating passive constructions. Also, I may have learned some grammatical concepts that made sense at the time but have never become active, covering such ground again helps in this respect. There's also a level of excitement with quality courses like Assimil FWOT, I'll really get a kick out of completing such courses. Others will offer little to nothing, but I'll be sure to speed through them, I hope.

4) Do you do this many courses because you feel like you need a lot of repetition to really "get" some of this stuff, or is it because you find that there are massive holes in each course that need to be supplemented by different courses? I can totally understand doing 1 or 2 grammar courses at an intermediate or advanced level, but what's the reasoning behind doing 10 grammar books? I guess my long-winded question is: is the purpose of doing this many courses to fill in major gaps that they all have, or is it about seeing the same lessons multiple times in slightly different ways because that's what helps you to understand better?

I think I struggle learning from reading extensively, at least I have in the beginning stages of French, and perhaps still lag considerably at my level. It could be that I haven't given reading enough time, but I read slow and that doesn't help. I'm very analytical in nature, yet also find it hard at times to understand new grammatical concepts and have them stick. To me doing multiple courses was about both repetition and filling holes. It's also been about coming across the same grammatical concepts explained in a different manner, to aid acquisition and understanding.

However, as I have come to read much more than I ever anticipated before starting this journey, I feel I'll read much more in future both with French and with other languages, as my ability to learn from reading has improved and my need for 700 trillion grammar explanations will signficantly decrease in subsequent languages, since when I first tried to learn foreign languages I was massively naïve as to how to go about succeeding in such an endeavour. I literally thought once upon a time that I just needed one or two courses completed in a year or so and I'd be fluent. Well, for me, that was never going to work, because I had no idea of the size of the task - the amount of grammar to be learned, the size of one's vocabulary needed to be at an advanced level of proficiency, and I'm still learning, and I'm still naïve in much of the foreign language learning department, but I've come a long way.

Back to the courses, i'll get much more out of the intermediate and advanced level courses, but I just want to plough through the list regardless of the too easy content, as it's a source of motivation and something I feel must be done

Thanks for your questions StringerBell and your careful respectful attention not to offend, I appreciate it.

[Elsa Maria]

If I could redo homeschooling, I would buy books and curriculum right before I needed them rather than accumulating them in advance. So if you go forward with homeschooling, I suggest keeping that buying-courses-too-far-in-advance-lesson-learned in the front of your mind!

[PeterMollenburg]

If I could redo homeschooling, I would buy books and curriculum right before I needed them rather than accumulating them in advance. So if you go forward with homeschooling, I suggest keeping that buying-courses-too-far-in-advance-lesson-learned in the front of your mind!

Thanks for the tip Elsa Maria

[tommus]

Accelerative Integrated Methodology (AIM)

Peter, you probably already use this technique for improving your children's French. I just came across the acronym AIM and looked into it a bit more. It is similar to TPR and other engaged and immersed techniques. But AIM seems to have an impressive proven track record, especially for teaching French in Canada. The technique is applicable to any language. You might want to try it for Dutch with your kids.

Although the technique is primarily aimed at children, there is really no reason it wouldn't work with adult classes, or even with adult language meetup groups.

Here are a couple of websites that really speak to its success:

Why We’re Failing at French

YouTube Introduction to AIM (from Australia)

[PeterMollenburg]

Accelerative Integrated Methodology (AIM)

Peter, you probably already use this technique for improving your children's French. I just came across the acronym AIM and looked into it a bit more. It is similar to TPR and other engaged and immersed techniques. But AIM seems to have an impressive proven track record, especially for teaching French in Canada. The technique is applicable to any language. You might want to try it for Dutch with your kids.

Although the technique is primarily aimed at children, there is really no reason it wouldn't work with adult classes, or even with adult language meetup groups.

Here are a couple of websites that really speak to its success:

Why We’re Failing at French

YouTube Introduction to AIM (from Australia)

Very interesting, thanks tommus. I appreciate you taking the time to post this in my log. I read the article and watched the clip.

Yes, I do employ some of these methods, but not all. It's a reminder to me that I could be a little more creative, indeed. I'm going to do some more exploring on 'AIM'.

I must say it is kinda odd in a way that i'm so hard-core myself on grammar books and courses, yet do not ever teach any grammar to the kids. I guess I just understand that my brain works completely differently to my childrens' with regards to language acquisition. I know that were I to attempt to teach them grammar and verb drills, that it would be a complete waste of time. Reading stories seems to be the best approach, as well as play, and with the case of French, just not using English with them. Still I certainly could add to my repertoire and be more creative. Thanks again. Feel free anyone to mention/post if you hear of any other methods of teaching languages to children that I might be able to take some pointers from.

Throw a cat over your cricket bat. What? Weird, PM, just weird.

[PeterMollenburg]

I'm not going to make any declarations here, but needless to say, i've changed my mind on my plans again. However, since I cannot stick to one plan for 2 seconds before changing my plans again, to the point that i'll have changed plans before even starting on one I have boldy declared and written enough about to bore the average language nerd on here to death.... well... i've nothing to say, but I shall try harder to speak of my language learning activities in retrospect from here on.

I asked myself why I have constantly changed my plans. What I have figured out from analysing my own behaviour, habits etc is that it's likely a combination of burn-out coupled with boredom, or at least wanderlust, being usure of my direction in life and obsessing over completing certain things in my language material line-up (which can be a positive too). I think I hit a wall a while back with French and didn't know what to do. Still, I've kept in touch with the language and haven't at least gone backwards. I had good reason to introduce other languages, and the ones I introduced were logically chosen. Anyway, let's see what I've been doing with languages by the end of the month.

Starting a new job always brings with it a feeling of some depression, because it's not really where I want to be in life. Still, I need to pay bills and it's not a living hell. The people are nice, my job is okay, it provides good opportunities and I've gained a lot of valuable life experience, but I'm certainly exploring other possibilities still, those which bring languages more to the forefront.

So what have I done recently with French or Dutch? (as opposed to what are my upcoming plans?).... well not a great deal since life continues to throw out some challenges. We're gradually settling into our new house but have had many (planned) interruptions, new jobs, applying for others, working out daily routines, unpacking and so on. I continue to read to the kids in both Dutch and French and consume some French media. That's about it.

[PeterMollenburg]

Once again I’m left questioning my presence on this forum. I can safely assume this forum is not alone in its moderation. I know this is an awesome forum and I appreciate the ‘too much leeway’ (as put to to me recently by a moderator here) that I’ve often been ‘allowed’. I continue to break rules while strictly attempting not to and yet still provide food for thought on some discussion topics. Apparently its I’ll offend almost anyone over almost anything. I get the distinct impression that most people here are not interested in my opinions when they differ too much from the current acceptable norms of society.

That to me sparks thoughts of a dangerous electronic world in which those who have opinions that differ from the acceptable norms, have no freedom of expression unless to be used as examples of unacceptable language (i.e. thought). offend others, will have their language removed or altered.

Manipulation of language is worrisome. Unfortunately I cannot elaborate. My ideas are open to being edited and are offensive. I want to leave but I’ll instead say ‘I’m taking a break’. Bye

[StringerBell]

I will happily delete this post upon request since this isn't my log.

I can understand the value and importance of not going off topic on threads started by others or on other people's logs. I, personally, try to avoid posting anything that doesn't relate to language learning on my own log, and I try to not derail others' threads.

However, I think that people should be free to write what they want in their own logs. If people don't agree with it, they are not compelled to continue reading that log. It is very worrying to me that nowadays more and more frequently people seem to forgo the power to look/walk away and instead complain that since they don't like something, it shouldn't be allowed. This is a slippery slope that erodes freedom. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you have to like or agree with what a person says. As long as they aren't lying or inciting violence, or promoting the suppression of other people's rights, they have the right to say it, and everyone else has the right to decide whether they want to listen.

[PeterMollenburg]

I will happily delete this post upon request since this isn't my log.

I can understand the value and importance of not going off topic on threads started by others or on other people's logs. I, personally, try to avoid posting anything that doesn't relate to language learning on my own log, and I try to not derail others' threads.

However, I think that people should be free to write what they want in their own logs. If people don't agree with it, they are not compelled to continue reading that log. It is very worrying to me that nowadays more and more frequently people seem to forgo the power to look/walk away and instead complain that since they don't like something, it shouldn't be allowed. This is a slippery slope that erodes freedom. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you have to like or agree with what a person says. As long as they aren't lying or inciting violence, or promoting the suppression of other people's rights, they have the right to say it, and everyone else has the right to decide whether they want to listen.

Well said. Thank you StringerBell

[Adrianslont]

I will happily delete this post upon request since this isn't my log.

I can understand the value and importance of not going off topic on threads started by others or on other people's logs. I, personally, try to avoid posting anything that doesn't relate to language learning on my own log, and I try to not derail others' threads.

However, I think that people should be free to write what they want in their own logs. If people don't agree with it, they are not compelled to continue reading that log. It is very worrying to me that nowadays more and more frequently people seem to forgo the power to look/walk away and instead complain that since they don't like something, it shouldn't be allowed. This is a slippery slope that erodes freedom. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you have to like or agree with what a person says. As long as they aren't lying or inciting violence, or promoting the suppression of other people's rights, they have the right to say it, and everyone else has the right to decide whether they want to listen.

StingerBell, While I basically agree with you about freedom of speech I am 99.9% (i am incapable of 100% satisfaction) happy with the way this forum is run and the limitations it sets out for two reasons.

Firstly, it’s a language learning forum - I enjoy a place on the net where I don’t have to sort through conspiracy theories, people promoting their commercial products, people arguing about politics and religious debate. There are plenty of other places on the net for people to go to if they want that. I go to them sometimes myself. Here I enjoy language learning stuff.

Secondly, this forum is community but it does have “owners”. It is a private entity as well as a community. The owners have to make sure that defamation and other laws are not breached - they are actually responsible/liable for what is on this forum. The owners are the mods/admins (I’m not sure what the difference is, if any) who pay the hosting costs, fix the technical problems and give lots of their time to keep this forum afloat, protect us from spam and keep it functioning as a civilised community. I like that and if I didn’t, I am free to walk or look away as we all are.