Zelda's 2019 French Log

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Cavesa
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby Cavesa » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:41 pm

That sounds great! Either you'll get one of those jobs, or an even better one, now that you're the Master of Interviews.

Out of curiosity, why on earth have you been adviced to leave French out of your resume?
It is completely weird, as a language or two are considered an awesome addition or even a must in the non anglophone countries.
It would be reasonable, if your level was really low,if you were not certified, you had too many languages there already, or knew your future boss didn't like the language for some reason, or I don't know what else. But why would you leave it out? It says only positive things about you!
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby zjones » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:59 pm

Cavesa wrote:That sounds great! Either you'll get one of those jobs, or an even better one, now that you're the Master of Interviews.

Out of curiosity, why on earth have you been adviced to leave French out of your resume?
It is completely weird, as a language or two are considered an awesome addition or even a must in the non anglophone countries.
It would be reasonable, if your level was really low,if you were not certified, you had too many languages there already, or knew your future boss didn't like the language for some reason, or I don't know what else. But why would you leave it out? It says only positive things about you!


I have seen mixed advice given by numerous people (here) and gotten specific advice from hiring managers (reddit). Language learners are more likely to say "Put it on the resume" but from hiring managers I hear "If it doesn't apply, leave it off" and "If they don't need to know you speak a second language if you won't need to speak it on the job." I thought it was a little bizarre.

In the interview, I did get the awkward question, "So, are you fluent?" and I waffled on that question. Looking back I wish I would have just answered in French. :lol:
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby rdearman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:31 pm

zjones wrote:In the interview, I did get the awkward question, "So, are you fluent?" and I waffled on that question

Next time just say "Try me."
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:10 pm

zjones wrote:
Cavesa wrote:That sounds great! Either you'll get one of those jobs, or an even better one, now that you're the Master of Interviews.

Out of curiosity, why on earth have you been adviced to leave French out of your resume?
It is completely weird, as a language or two are considered an awesome addition or even a must in the non anglophone countries.
It would be reasonable, if your level was really low,if you were not certified, you had too many languages there already, or knew your future boss didn't like the language for some reason, or I don't know what else. But why would you leave it out? It says only positive things about you!


I have seen mixed advice given by numerous people (here) and gotten specific advice from hiring managers (reddit). Language learners are more likely to say "Put it on the resume" but from hiring managers I hear "If it doesn't apply, leave it off" and "If they don't need to know you speak a second language if you won't need to speak it on the job." I thought it was a little bizarre.

In the interview, I did get the awkward question, "So, are you fluent?" and I waffled on that question. Looking back I wish I would have just answered in French. :lol:

There are two reasons not to put French on your resume: one benign, one not.
1. Benign. If hiring managers see you put an irrelevant skill on your resume, they may conclude you can't focus.
2. Not benign. Xenophobia spreads wide and runs deep on these shores. If French is on your resume, you will have enemies your first day on the job, you won't know who they are, and you run the risk of having your work sabotaged from day one. Oh, yes.

If you get the job and like the job, feel things out first and then bring up French if it seems right or useful.
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Cavesa
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby Cavesa » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:46 am

zjones wrote:I have seen mixed advice given by numerous people (here) and gotten specific advice from hiring managers (reddit). Language learners are more likely to say "Put it on the resume" but from hiring managers I hear "If it doesn't apply, leave it off" and "If they don't need to know you speak a second language if you won't need to speak it on the job." I thought it was a little bizarre.

In the interview, I did get the awkward question, "So, are you fluent?" and I waffled on that question. Looking back I wish I would have just answered in French. :lol:


This just shows how the US and Europe are different (and how I would really get a nasty cultural shock, if I tried to move there out of my beloved Europe). Here, any hiring manager will tell you to put the languages there! It makes the impression that you are an educated person, it shows a useful skill (even if the second foreign language is not exactly demanded) that the employer may or may not use, and sets you apart from other candidates. But sure, putting in the whole list of languages with low levels is not recommendable.

Yes, you should have probably answered in French, that is one of the lessons one acquires only with experience :-D Hmm, perhaps we should have a thread with ideas for answers to some common questions like this.

MorkTheFiddle wrote:There are two reasons not to put French on your resume: one benign, one not.
1. Benign. If hiring managers see you put an irrelevant skill on your resume, they may conclude you can't focus.
2. Not benign. Xenophobia spreads wide and runs deep on these shores. If French is on your resume, you will have enemies your first day on the job, you won't know who they are, and you run the risk of having your work sabotaged from day one. Oh, yes.

If you get the job and like the job, feel things out first and then bring up French if it seems right or useful.


Again, it is really fascinating to see the differences! Sad, but fascinating

The languages are basically taken as relevant to everything in Europe, not a sign of not focusing (unless you list ten languages, I'd say). Sure, you shouldn't get into talking about them too much (hehe, happened to me, another thing for the "needed answers" list), but leaving them out makes as much sense as hiding you've got both hands and legs.

Here, you get the part Languages in every model CV and you hear the companies and HR complaining about too few languages (at a good level, which in many cases means B1 and better). Perhaps the UK may be different, but not the rest. So, leaving the languages out is a mistake in most cases, and lying you're monolingual would be really weird. Even if you left the languages out and still managed to get to the interview (as the languages are taken as an easy way to throw a part of the CVs to the bin without further work, whether the foreign English is actually needed for the job or not), you'd be asked about them (and quite possibly in the language, if it is a common one like German for example).

I totally get it, that a person might want to hide certain languages in certain situations. But it just looks completely unreal that xenophobia could target French as something wrong. You know, the French are basically the definition of our culture and race, a part of the roots of the whole euroamerican world. So, how anyone see French (German, Italian, Dutch,Swedish...) as something "xeno" is beyond my imagination. But people being xenophobe a-holes in general, that is of course the sad reality.

Thanks to both of you for an explanation!
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby MamaPata » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:38 pm

Here, you get the part Languages in every model CV and you hear the companies and HR complaining about too few languages (at a good level, which in many cases means B1 and better). Perhaps the UK may be different, but not the rest. So, leaving the languages out is a mistake in most cases, and lying you're monolingual would be really weird. Even if you left the languages out and still managed to get to the interview (as the languages are taken as an easy way to throw a part of the CVs to the bin without further work, whether the foreign English is actually needed for the job or not), you'd be asked about them (and quite possibly in the language, if it is a common one like German for example).


Yeah, it's definitely different in the UK. I don't think people would go as far as to say to take them out, but when you apply for something, you're advised to literally find each line of the person specification in the job description and respond to that. So if you then needed to get your CV down to a page or two pages, if languages weren't relevant, they might be lost. It's an interesting topic.
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby Cenwalh » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:08 pm

MamaPata wrote:
Here, you get the part Languages in every model CV and you hear the companies and HR complaining about too few languages (at a good level, which in many cases means B1 and better). Perhaps the UK may be different, but not the rest. So, leaving the languages out is a mistake in most cases, and lying you're monolingual would be really weird. Even if you left the languages out and still managed to get to the interview (as the languages are taken as an easy way to throw a part of the CVs to the bin without further work, whether the foreign English is actually needed for the job or not), you'd be asked about them (and quite possibly in the language, if it is a common one like German for example).


Yeah, it's definitely different in the UK. I don't think people would go as far as to say to take them out, but when you apply for something, you're advised to literally find each line of the person specification in the job description and respond to that. So if you then needed to get your CV down to a page or two pages, if languages weren't relevant, they might be lost. It's an interesting topic.


I'm not sure whether I agree or not. It might be something I put right at the bottom, but only if I were able to use it in a professional capacity.
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby MamaPata » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:10 pm

Cenwalh wrote:
MamaPata wrote:
Here, you get the part Languages in every model CV and you hear the companies and HR complaining about too few languages (at a good level, which in many cases means B1 and better). Perhaps the UK may be different, but not the rest. So, leaving the languages out is a mistake in most cases, and lying you're monolingual would be really weird. Even if you left the languages out and still managed to get to the interview (as the languages are taken as an easy way to throw a part of the CVs to the bin without further work, whether the foreign English is actually needed for the job or not), you'd be asked about them (and quite possibly in the language, if it is a common one like German for example).


Yeah, it's definitely different in the UK. I don't think people would go as far as to say to take them out, but when you apply for something, you're advised to literally find each line of the person specification in the job description and respond to that. So if you then needed to get your CV down to a page or two pages, if languages weren't relevant, they might be lost. It's an interesting topic.


I'm not sure whether I agree or not. It might be something I put right at the bottom, but only if I were able to use it in a professional capacity.


Is that not basically what I have said? If it was relevant, you'd put it in at the top, but you definitely don't have to keep it in in the way that Cavesa was talking about. I kept mine in because it's relevant to the jobs I've been applying to. If it wasn't relevant, it would have gone to the bottom, or if I had other experience I wanted to fit on and I was running out of space, I might not have put it in.
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby Chung » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:17 pm

zjones wrote:
Cavesa wrote:That sounds great! Either you'll get one of those jobs, or an even better one, now that you're the Master of Interviews.

Out of curiosity, why on earth have you been adviced to leave French out of your resume?
It is completely weird, as a language or two are considered an awesome addition or even a must in the non anglophone countries.
It would be reasonable, if your level was really low,if you were not certified, you had too many languages there already, or knew your future boss didn't like the language for some reason, or I don't know what else. But why would you leave it out? It says only positive things about you!


I have seen mixed advice given by numerous people (here) and gotten specific advice from hiring managers (reddit). Language learners are more likely to say "Put it on the resume" but from hiring managers I hear "If it doesn't apply, leave it off" and "If they don't need to know you speak a second language if you won't need to speak it on the job." I thought it was a little bizarre.

In the interview, I did get the awkward question, "So, are you fluent?" and I waffled on that question. Looking back I wish I would have just answered in French. :lol:


The rule of thumb that I use with résumés (as applicant and hiring manger alike) is to make them no longer than one page long (i.e. one side only). Outside academia, résumés longer than that are often a turn-off. If on one page you can't fit a line about any foreign languages that you know, and you don't need to know them for the job anyway, then keep it off the résumé. Otherwise, put down in that line the foreign languages that you do know (especially if you're pretty sure that you can answer potential questions in the interview using that language). In a cover letter, I always include a sentence or two about my interest/abilities in foreign languages.

You probably know that CEFR isn't well-known on this side of the ocean so qualify your knowledge of French with something like "French - conversational", "working knowledge of French" or even "basic fluency in French".

For what it's worth, I put down my knolwedge of some foreign languages on my résumé but only those in which I'm confident that I could conduct at least part of the interview in that language. This means that I put it down as: "fluent in French, working knowledge of German, conversational ability in Hungarian, Polish, and Slovak", and it hasn't been a problem even though I've never worked anywhere where I needed to know any language other than English (my experience with Microsoft Office - especially VBA programming - has been more interesting to hiring managers). Sometimes, I've received polite questions about it, but once I got quite lucky when the hiring manager turned out to be a transplanted Slovak who was obviously curious about my skills in the interview. We switched midstream to Slovak for a few minutes and in addition to asking me about salary expectations (a good test of recalling how to use numbers in Slovak, incidentally) and my connection to the language, we found out that we had a few of the same Czech and Slovak acquaintances/friends. These definitely helped me in getting an offer.
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Re: Zelda's 2019 French Log

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:38 pm

I regularily interview lawyers fresh out of law school. Honestly, I want to see something interesting at the bottom of their CV. Languages, runs marathons, bakes bread, broke a world record (this happened!), whatever. I want *something* to ask them about not related to law, just to see how they interact informally.

I can’t possibly imagine languages being a negative thing, even in the US, but hey, I’m a lawyer. We like language.
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