Dutch Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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trui
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby trui » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:47 pm

Elsa Maria wrote:Both of those books look great, and I was surprised to find out that I can get both of them through USA Amazon. I'm a little hesitant on the Thematische woordenschat Nederlands voor anderstaligen because the ISBN doesn't match the ISBN on bol.com, and Amazon lists the language as Dutch/German. But the covers and title match. Well, it appears to be readily available, so I might take a chance on that one at a later date.

I went ahead and bought Donaldson's book, because the price is only reasonable if you buy used. I figured I might as well order a good used copy when it is available - these things come and go!

Thanks for the recommendations!

I decided to do my little presentation on the city of Leiden. I'll take a guess that trui would agree with me that it is a wonderful city :)


That's weird. Have you tried checking the Thematische woordenschat Duits ISBN? There are ones for all sorts of languages and presumably that'd be in Dutch/German. If that's not the mixup though then that's weird! I'm no fan of Amazon myself for various reasons but sometimes it's the only option. Fortunately, I've never found something that I feel I need on it.

I just popped in to say the above, but yes, Leiden is a quite nice city :) Now back to studying or I'm going to get a 7 day point penalty for the 365 day challenge! Haha.
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Kat
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Kat » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:31 am

trui wrote:
Elsa Maria wrote:... I'm a little hesitant on the Thematische woordenschat Nederlands voor anderstaligen because the ISBN doesn't match the ISBN on bol.com, and Amazon lists the language as Dutch/German. But the covers and title match....


That's weird. Have you tried checking the Thematische woordenschat Duits ISBN? There are ones for all sorts of languages and presumably that'd be in Dutch/German. If that's not the mixup though then that's weird!...


I think I might have an idea what's going on. Have you checked the publisher? The book is published by Intertaal in the Netherlands and at the same time by the German publishing house Klett. Sometimes, if learning materials are also used in German schools, Dutch and German publishers cooperate with each other. I had exactly the same issue with Taal vitaal (a textbook) some years ago. In that case the books also had two different ISBN numbers but were otherwise completely identical.

I've ordered a copy of Thematische woordenschat Nederlands voor anderstaligen for myself yesterday because I found a really good deal (13 EUR, shipping included). The downside is that shipping is very slow and takes about 2 weeks but I'm not in a hurry anyway. Apparently the shop also ships to the US for free, so if you are interested, I can report back later if they are reliable and I've really received the correct version.
Now I just need to find the time to actually use that book. :D

Good luck with your presentation!
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:24 pm

broodjeaapverhaal = monkey meat sandwich story = urban legend
stadssage = urban legend
stadslegende = urban legend

Urban legends are good, short, interesting narratives to read about in your L2. But why do the Dutch call them monkey meat sandwich stories. Wikipedia has the story:

Broodjeaapverhaal Wikipedia

A good source of Dutch urban legends is Nederlandse VolksverhalenBank. The website starts with:

De Nederlandse Volksverhalenbank van het Meertens Instituut bevat vele verhalen uit heden en verleden. Alle genres zijn vertegenwoordigd: sprookje, sage, legende, raadsel, mop, broodjeaapverhaal en dergelijke. De oudste verhalen stammen uit de middeleeuwen, de jongste verhalen dateren - bij wijze van spreken - van gisteren. De verhalen zijn zowel in het Nederlands, het Fries als in allerhande streektalen.

The Dutch Folktales Bank of the Meertens Institute contains many stories from the past and present. All genres are represented: fairy tale, saga, legend, riddle, joke, urban legend and the like. The oldest stories date from the Middle Ages, the youngest stories date - so to speak - from yesterday. The stories are in Dutch, Frisian as well as in all kinds of regional languages.

De Nederlandse Volksverhalenbank
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:05 pm

Good-quality Dutch subtitles - Goede kwaliteit Nederlandse ondertitels

Public broadcasters in the Netherlands are required to provide subtitles. However, the quality of these "ondertitels" varies quite a bit, especially for live programming or even recorded versions of "live" programming. The best example of poor subtitles is NOS Journaal 20:00, the daily Dutch news at 8:00 PM. Some nights, it is pretty good. Some nights, it's terrible. It seems to depend on which "ondertiteler" is on duty that night. And the weather reports; they are consistently the worst. Other programs, such as documentaries, and even series, are somewhat better. There are two main problems. The first problem is that the text is often very much abbreviated, or completely changed, or completely missing. It is usually not too bad for what the news anchor is saying, but is the worst or often completely ignored for "man in the street" interviews which would be especially useful for language learners. The second problem is that the subtitles are very poorly synchronised with the speech, usually much too late, which is especially unhelpful for language learners.

However, good news:

There is a website specifically aimed at newcomers to the Netherlands, those who need to learn or improve their Dutch while simultaneously learning about Dutch society, culture, etc. The subtitles seem to be specifically produced to be both accurate and timely, and they are excellent. The programs cover a good spectrum, news, series, language learning, documentaries, popular videos, etc. The only issue I have seen is that the "current" news seems to not be quite current. Here is a statement from the website:

"New to the Netherlands is a website from the Dutch Public Broadcaster NPO where you can watch programs with Dutch, English and Arabic subtitles. By using a selection of on-demand media, New to the Netherlands wants to offer refugees and immigrants a guide to Dutch society."

Net In Nederland - New to the Netherlands
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: 180 / 370
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Elsa Maria
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Elsa Maria » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:55 pm

Two questions today! Maybe those of you with a higher level of Dutch can help me sort this out.

1.
CAPITALIZATION OF PROPER NAMES
Are proper names capitalized in a manner similar to English? I have looked through several of my books, and I would say yes.
But I'm om page 57 of Het GROTE zelfleesboek, and first names are not capitalized. Looking ahead, at about the midpoint of the book first names start getting capitalized. This is a book for Dutch children beginning to read - maybe this is just part of the teaching method. Or is something else going on?

Here are some sample sentences.

dit is bas.
en dat is ron.
bas en ron gaan naar school.

mat is de man van jet.

2.
FORMAL PRONOUNS

In the Pimsleur thread, we were discussing the use of formal pronouns. What is your experience with the formal form of you in Dutch? I have asked two native speakers this question. One told me that he would only use the formal you when talking with royalty. A different person said that a job interview would be a good place to use formal pronouns.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:59 am

tommus wrote:Vocabulary is obviously important. Dutch students learning English, French and German (and other languages) have a number of online resources to improve their vocabularies in those languages. Here are some parallel text lists with some explanations. They are available in EN-NL, FR-NL and DU-NL, each for two Dutch education programs HAVO and VWO. The German versions are combined HAVO/VWO.

HAVO (Hoger algemeen voortgezet onderwijs) higher general continued education

VWO (Voorbereidend wetenschappelijk onderwijs) preparatory scientific education

HAVO EN-NL

VWO EN-NL

HAVO FR-NL

VWO FR-NL

HAVO/VWO DU-NL


tommus you've been a wealth of resources and information of late. Thank you kindly. These vocabulary lists will be of particular interest to me (and I'm back learning some Dutch, just dabbling currently), especially given you have located the same content across Dutch/French/English. Thank you!
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:13 am

Elsa Maria wrote:Both of those books look great, and I was surprised to find out that I can get both of them through USA Amazon. I'm a little hesitant on the Thematische woordenschat Nederlands voor anderstaligen because the ISBN doesn't match the ISBN on bol.com, and Amazon lists the language as Dutch/German. But the covers and title match. Well, it appears to be readily available, so I might take a chance on that one at a later date.

I went ahead and bought Donaldson's book, because the price is only reasonable if you buy used. I figured I might as well order a good used copy when it is available - these things come and go!

Thanks for the recommendations!

I decided to do my little presentation on the city of Leiden. I'll take a guess that trui would agree with me that it is a wonderful city :)
In putting together my piece, I used this website: Muurgedichten Leiden. For those who don't know, Leiden has these amazing wall poems strewn throughout the city. You can sort the poems by original language on the site. And you can listen to the poem read aloud in its original language as well as read translations into Dutch and (sometimes) English.

ETA: Here is a link to the list of Dutch poets.


Yes, both of these books look really interesting! I can't buy them though, since, if I ever leave Australia (waiting for visa's... still!) I'll have too much already to take with me, but definitely interesting and I trust Donaldson as a fantastic author of Dutch learning materials (and a fellow Australian, or at least he taught here for many years).

I never got to Leiden in 2011 with my wife, despite being in NL for 5 months. It's definitely high on my list of Dutch places to visit upon a future return. I love the beautiful architecture of Dutch towns and cities - de grachtenhuizen! (I think I've written that correctly).
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:27 am

tommus wrote:English versus Dutch in education in the Netherlands and Belgium

There seems to be ever increasing concern that the Dutch language is being replaced by English in the education systems of the Netherlands and Belgium, especially for science education in universities. At the Master's level, and especially for PhDs, not only are the research and dissertations in English, but essentially all of the instruction is conducted in English. Presentations by researchers at international conferences are increasingly and overwhelmningly being done in English. So to be competitive in research and in the international job market, doesn't it make sense to get educated in English? Some say that being instructed in higher education in a language other than your mother tongue (in this case Dutch) puts students at a disadvantage. They don't understand English as well as Dutch. Most of their instructors are teaching in the instructor's second language. The fact that English is so widespread in university instruction in the Netherlands and Belgium makes it easy to attract thousands of international students, providing a very significant income stream for universities.

There are tons of articles on the Internet in Dutch about this situation. Here are three:

Voer het debat over de Nederlandse taal

Verengelsing hoger onderwijs

Engels of Nederlands in het wetenschappelijk onderwijs

Is the Dutch language deteriorating? Should English be established as an official second language? Should there be laws about how much instruction schools and universities can conduct in English? What is the effect that TV, movies, books, the Internet, education, etc. is having on how quickly English is becoming a lingua franca in Dutch-speaking countries? What does the future hold?


I associate a lot of my own fear of the deterioration of European languages and cultures with the spread of English. To me it seems that the more the education system converts to English in place of the local language, the more risk there is of the local language becoming less and less relevant. Already English dominates international meetings, science research and in higher education it is ever expanding. In the hunt for more profits, organisation with rely on attracting foreign investment, students, input are placing more and more importance on English. There has to be a legal line drawn at some point if one is to protect their local languages and not render them less and less relevant in more and more spheres of life. I don't blame organisations, such as universities wanting to attract foreign students, but a line must be drawn.

If not, I do feel that Europe in 100 years (maybe less, maybe a lot more) could be an English dominated continent, in which the populations of various countries are ever more mobile and simply see it as impractical to 'turn back the clock' and ensure their 'archaic' languages remain in use or protected. Where Frisian, Breton, Occitan and other languages are today, will be where Dutch, French, Norwegian etc will be down the track if we don't put a limit on the expansion of English.

One little addition after another with eventually break the camel's back, and the spread of English in Belgium and the Netherlands higher education are just more of those steps. Science and research being dominated by English means it's 'only natural' that those in non-English speaking countries get a better grip on English earlier to be able to be competitive down the track when it comes to doing their own research. But how long before almost all students everywhere just use English because it's the language of instruction and there are so many international students? How long before then the demand in books, TV and other forms of media in English skyrockets, while local European languages relevance becomes dismal? How long before English just becomes the default language in the home in these countries starting first with major cities (financial districts, where populations are much more mixed in terms of other nationalities).

I do not see a healthy future for practically all languages (Europe at present more so than elsewhere), if we do not take strong measures to protect them against the rush towards globalisation. Despite what the powers that be keep telling us about free-trade, globalisation and the like, I for one, and never in agreement. The future is boring, multinational dominated and the colour is all but faded.
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:41 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I associate a lot of my own fear of the deterioration of European languages and cultures with the spread of English.

I have this fear specifically for Dutch because that is where I see it the most, but I sense it is also a concern with other languages. You definitely see conflicting opinions, some even saying English may eventually be supplanted worldwide. But I find that hard to comprehend. So I will offer two comments specifically about Dutch, one pro and one con, regarding its future.

Wikipedia: Worldwide, there are about 21 million native Dutch speakers, representing 0.32% of the world population, and ranking 56th among language populations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

However, Dutch ranks 4th in the total number of Wikipedia articles: English (5.8 million), German (2.3 million), French (2.1 million), Dutch 2.0 million), Spanish, Italian, Russian (each 1.5 million), Chinese, Portuguese (1.0 million). How come the Dutch contribute a staggering number of Wikipedia articles in proportion to their size? Is it because they speak English so well that they can more easily translate the English Wikipedia? I don't know why the Dutch Wikipedia is so large, but it certainly helps when you are learning Dutch.

https://www.wikipedia.org/

Dictionaries and wordlists: The expensive Van Dale Dictionary is published by a private company and dominates the Dutch-language dictionary scene. The Green Booklet (Groene Boekje) is produced and published by the Dutch Language Union (Nederlandse Taalunie). It is "a list of words in the correct official spelling of the Dutch language" (updated every 10 years), and Dutch speakers (people, businesses, government, journalists, etc.) are encourages to use it. But you have to buy it (paperback or CD-ROM). You can look up individual words on the Internet for free. Dutch language journalists have traditionally opposed a lot of aspects of new spelling rules. So although Van Dale and Het Groene Boekje promote the quality of the Dutch language, they may also be counter productive because of their monopoly and cost.

Van Dale (English Wikipedia)

Van Dale (Dutch Wikipedia)

Green Booklet (English Wikipedia)

Groene Boekje (Dutch Wikipedia)

Van Dale Online

Het Groene Boekje online
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: 180 / 370
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Kat
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Kat » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:45 pm

Elsa Maria wrote:Are proper names capitalized in a manner similar to English?


As far as I know proper names are capitalized in Dutch. I have no idea why it's done differently in your book.

Elsa Maria wrote:What is your experience with the formal form of you in Dutch? I have asked two native speakers this question. One told me that he would only use the formal you when talking with royalty. A different person said that a job interview would be a good place to use formal pronouns.


A native speaker would be better suited to answer this but I can comment on a few things I noticed.

I have been addressed with "u" before when I spoke to someone in their professional capacity, for example when booking a hotel room or a guided tour. While many people use the informal form of address, it's certainly useful to learn the formal form as well.

German and Dutch are similar in many ways. Both have a formal and an informal way of adressing someone, so it came as a big surprise to me that the usage of those forms differs quite a bit.

Some interesting differences compared to German:

  • People sometimes switch the form of address in the middle of a conversation without calling your attention to it. In German, you decide on one form and stick to it. If you want to switch, it's usually explicitly offered. Apparently not so in Dutch.
  • Religious people address God with the formal "u" in prayer. From a German perspective that sounds very unusual.
  • According to a friend, it's still common for Dutch children to address their grandparents with "u" in conservative families. In older generations also parents, uncles and aunts were addressed with "u". In German, you automatically use the informal form of address with all family members.
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