Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:43 am

trui wrote:I still think that many people underestimate the CEFR levels, and that's okay. Then again, it's hard not to considering some of the tests based on the CEFR. I can't judge your French so I don't know if you are, but I wouldn't stress about it.

Studying Dutch in Leiden, I've taken 5 courses taught in Dutch this semester and I'll be taking 6 courses next semester. IIRC, the courses I'm taking at the moment specifically about improving one's Dutch intend to take your active skills to a B1/B2 level, and they're no joke! On the intake tests, I just barely passed the listening test and didn't score that high on the reading test. I think that means I'm B1/B2 when it comes to my passive skills, and I certainly need it for the lectures! That's why you have to pass said intake tests before being able to follow the second year courses.

Anyways, whether or not I'm B1 or B2 or whatever, my point is that you should be concerned more about your abilities than labels (though of course tests are useful for employment...) And if you are B2, then you can be certain that it's a super solid B2 :) That's how I view my level. I'm working on further solidifying my level. Any progress I make solidifies it even more. And I don't know about you, but I kind of like the idea of becoming a rock solid B2 than a rather shakey C1. :)

Dutch is nice, but getting your French to be rock solid would be even nicer, non? That's what I'm trying to do with my Dutch. But only you can decide what's best for you.


Thanks trui, or should I say pull-over (or even 'pull')?

Anyway, jokes aside, I agree with everything you have to say. I've come to the realisation, my French definitely isn't where I want it to be (yet). I thought I was okay with that, but it seems I'm not.

However, given that I'll be in Saudi for one to two years (estimates, of course), and I'll be a stay-at-home dad, reading stories and communicating with my children, I wanted to take the opportunity to at least read to them in Dutch as well as French. Since after Saudi, we might go to belgium and there are more work opportunities it seems in the Flanders. It would be great if I could get the children up to some kind of a basic working level of the language, or basic understanding of it via reading, which I have done with French. In French, of course I speak to them in French as well, so it's a little different.

Anyway, were I to go full steam ahead with my French, the opportunity for introducing Dutch to the children is gone from the perspective of me being around them much more than usual. As I side note, I also lose the opportunity to learn Arabic.

Therefore, the situation requires a little more consideration as Dutch = introducing it to the children, increased chance of employment in Belgium.
Arabic = more connection with Saudi environment, but not necessarily anything substantial (who knows) as there is a lot of English spoken there.
French improvement = perhaps it could also increase my work opportunities as well, but to a smaller degree than opening up Flanders, since I'm already B2+ in French. It means my level potentially increases, it means my comfort with the language increases, it means my interactions with the children will become more complex, potentially as they grow (not that I'm only speaking to them like babies, no that's not the case). However, where does it end? What if in one year, I don't feel that much better in French? It probably won't be the case, but there's plenty to consider here.

Thanks again trui! Your adventure in NL sounds awesome! (i'm kinda envious, but happy for you!).
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby garyb » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:56 am

I agree that people underestimate C-levels and sometimes overestimate forum members' levels based on their post count and influence even though those members are typically very frank about their abilities and limitations. Happens to me too: people assume that since I post a lot about Italian I must be great at it. If you struggle with dubbed series and Harry Potter audiobooks you're not C1, simple as. Not a criticism at all, just a realistic assessment. Unfortunately I can't really advise you on how to get to that point because I've been "B2+" for years now. My comprehension must be in the Cs as I'm fine with most native media unless it's very slangy or literary, and I got there just from lots of practice and perhaps some talent, but my output's not there.

Anyway I can only encourage you to keep it up and find that balance between study and usage. Courses alone will never really teach you to understand native speech and TV, as much as they might help with certain weak points in understanding.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby tommus » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:52 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:However, where does it end? What if in one year, I don't feel that much better in French? It probably won't be the case, but there's plenty to consider here.

My comments, for what they may be worth. It seems like any investment in Arabic would be of limited value, considering the limited opportunities to use it in an English speaking environment, and a short time, in Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, if a move to Belgium happens, the value of Dutch and French will be much greater, even essential. Assuming the possibility of helping your children to become trilingual after a few years in Belgium, that would be a big return on investment. I can even envision the possible irony of you teaching your children French and Dutch, and they go on to a French school and maybe Dutch-speaking friends, and become better in those languages than you. "He teacheth better than he knoweth!" What an accomplishment that would be. As for Belgium, not many places are so well positioned to support bilingualism in French and Dutch, especially in Brussels. Even better, Brussels is good for trilingualism (including English). Those possibilities would be great motivation for your own French and Dutch.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:55 am

Thank you garyb and tommus for your comments, i’ve reflected on them...

garyb, you are right, I’m not C1. You are also right about courses not cutting it, however... (see further below)

tommus, you are right, my children would benefit substantially from Dutch, but... it’s going to have to wait.

I’ve decided to return to French only. And I’ll do it my way, which inevitably could see me hover in course land for far too long. However (lot’s of ‘however’s’), I’ll be hitting the study hard, à la Skynet style. I have cut my French course list from 49 to 21. It was 18, but I was counting all volumes of Cours de langue et civilisation françaises as one course instead of four (hence reaching 21).

If anyone remembers my ‘PM’s Big 5’ mission, which lasted a whole, well, very short while, this is bigger, but at least it’s not 49 courses. Disclaimer- I’ve also more ‘courses’ specifically for vocabulary acquisition, such as CLE Vocabulaire Progressif du Français, frequency dictionaries, illustrated dictionaries and the like, but such material is in my separate ‘vocabulary list (of books/courses/word lists etc)’ and I don’t care about their completion.

Here’s the final cut:
1. Practise Makes Perfect : Subjunctive (half way through)
2. Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises 1 (1/4 or 1/3 completed)
3. Assimil French Without Toil
4. Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises 2
5. Hugo French Advanced
6. CLE : Grammaire Progressive du Français (niveau intermédiaire)
7. French in Action (have completed 18 leçons)
8. Ultimate French Verb Review and Practise.
9. Colloquial French 2
10. Ultimate French Review and Practise
11. CLE : Grammaire Progressive du Français (niveau avancé)
12. Assimil Business French
13. FSI French Basic (have completed 11 units)
14. Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises 3
15. Le français des infirmiers (yet to purchase - thanks Arnaud for the suggestion a long time ago!)
16. CLE : Grammaire Progressive du Français (niveau perfectionnement)
17. Streetwise French
18. Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises 4
19. Production écrite : niveaux C1 / C2
20. Réussir le Dalf : niveaux C1 et C2
21. Dalf C1 : Tests complets corrigés

I foresee myself abandonning this, since that’s what my track record reveals, but i’ll fight every temptation to do so, and will aim to progress rapidly, much more so than before. I don’t want to dribble over content, I haven’t the luxury of time.

Strongly at the forefront of my mind will be fellow forum member Skynet and his super fast progress in French. Over 5 years of my on again off again course study saw me complete 28 courses. Skynet has completed as many courses and then some in under a tenth of the time all the while keeping up a social life, exercise and the study of TWO master’s. Incredible! I am not him, however, but I will certainly have him in mind. Apparently I have served as some inspiration to him at times (or is me ego making that up?), now it’s time for him to return the favour! ;)

Where’s the native content I hear you say? There’ll be some. Plenty of reading to my children. No, it’s not novels or literature reserved for those with an appreciation of literature, but it’s still going to help. There will be some watching/listening as well squeezed into my days. But for the most part, I MUST get through these courses if it’s the last thing I do, or i’ll never move on. That’s the thing, I can’t let go, they must be completed so I can then move on.

Dutch? Dropped!
Arabic? Ditto!

After the courses? all will be revealed in the next rediculous step in PM’s sooooo long French mission.

I was wrong, I do care about reaching C1/C2, I can’t move on without it.

I know people have had big concerns about my study methods at times, and for good reason, please don’t relinquish those concerns, but watch me plough through these bastard courses, and then move on! See you in 55 years! (on the other side? ;) )
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:27 am

CompImp wrote:I've genuinely never seen someone change their mind so often.

Pick something and stick to it ! And if you spend a lot of time going over old rope on courses with limited language exposure it's no wonder you're not improving. You need to come to terms, and get comfortable, with the fact that if you continue to do language 'your way' you will never reach the really high levels. It's just not possible with courses.

I understand you like courses, but you really needed to ditch them 2 years ago, but you're stubborn. :D


Granted I change my mind a LOT, but ironically, if anyone has been consistent here, it’s me. Five years + of French almost exclusively. Consistent enough? Going over old rope with courses? Here’s my stats from last year below. Yes I’ve done a lot of courses, but I’ve done a lot of other activities too.

I might take forever to progress, but I have progressed. B2 in French is a not a weak achievement, it’s something, even if it does take me 10 times as long as the fastest learners.

Also, we’ve never spoken before, and your profile doesn’t reveal much. What grounds can you claim I need to move on? Have you reached B2 in an L2 without courses? If so, have you something meatier to share with me that might be of benefit, like how you achieved your language successes?

All in all I’m tired of defending my methods. People have seen me for long enough here, and been pleasantly surprised (almost willing to do more courses themselves) because of my success at times. It’s one thing to have a sound method that apparently gets one to C1 (or ‘advanced’ or whatever), but those people, methods etc, are not me. I do things my way, the way that motivates me, and that often means I chop and change my mind. So what, at least I continue to learn French.

However, you have a rock solid valid point, beyond B2 is a different story altogether. I know this, I have accepted this (what others have to say), I accept that every man and his dog wants me to put me into native content (only) already, some like you, like already 2 years ago. I get it, but it’s not going to happen. I don’t feel necessarily that the courses on my list will get me to C1/C2. They will help though, and people might or might not be surprised. I don’t know, all I know is I feel I must do them, because that’s what I want to do.

Perhaps I’m stubborn, perhaps I’m just me. You might get your wish though, I intend to stick to this plan (give me a month, tops ;) )

2018 TOTALS
Extensive reading: 194 hours 41min
Television: 178hrs 13min
Courses: 125hrs 18min
Audio courses (commuting): 98hrs 37min
Podcasts (commuting and other): 72hrs 34min
Exclusive vocab study: 24hrs 20min
Intensive reading: 23hrs 18min
Audio books: 6hrs 14min

TOTAL: 751hrs 52min

Not to mention speaking to my children - A LOT - every single day in French.
(no they are not native FR speakers as in they haven’t learned it from anywhere/one else but me and a few French kindergarten/playgroup sessions, and French children’s media, but my interactions with them are constant, in French, so at the very least I’m verbalising what I learn)
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby rdearman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:51 am

It seems to me your trying to learn calculus by studying algebra. Lots of B1/B2 courses would logically just make you a better B2. I also don't see why you can't fit in Dutch into an extra half-hour a day. But just my opinion.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:40 am

rdearman wrote:It seems to me your trying to learn calculus by studying algebra. Lots of B1/B2 courses would logically just make you a better B2. I also don't see why you can't fit in Dutch into an extra half-hour a day. But just my opinion.


You’ve said it yourself before rdearman, that is, you’ve very strongly indicated that if you want to succeed in language X, don’t introduce other languages until you’re done and it seemed as if this came from your own experiences and struggles in moving forward with languages. As for my methods, as stated already, i’ll do things the way I want to despite the end result, despite what others have to say.

I was swayed very much so early on by those who kept trying to influence the way I learned (and out of kindness, which I utterly appreciated). I can’t thank this forum, as a collective enough for all the awesome tips and advice I’ve receive here. The opposition to my methods has been useful, and worthwhile.

This time round however, I’ll try it 100% my way, whether that means changing my mind in 2 days time or in 2 years, sticking to courses, introducing other languages or not. If people had the impression I was stubborn before, because I wouldn’t do what they thought I should do, (wait for it, this could be fit for a cheesy Hollywood one-liner where the hero, or is it the bad guy, with a cape on that reads, ‘language learner, for realz’), i’m going to do it 100% my way :?

As for squeezing in 30min Dutch. i’ve been informed in the past by experienced language learners here (what, now I’m prepared to listen to others, because it suits my argument ;) ? you bet!), that if one wants to make it to C1/C2, don’t bother with other languages, focus. They also, might’ve, just quietly, kind of, actually stated, as well, that courses should be almost completely left behind. Mind you, some of the courses on my list were deemed as exceptions, so that, kinda, half, counts. Huh? PM! Stop it! You’re listening to other experienced language learners again! Dammit, PM, you know everything, you know courses will take you to level W34+++ and that no-one else knows this yet as they’ve not done as many courses as you!

As trui posted recently, and I absolutely agree with, the CEFR levels are constantly under-played. Not trui’s words exactly, but the point that it’s an f***ng long way from B2 to C1.

That Luca polyglot dude, says from B2 to C1, if living in country and doing 10 hours a day of study will take you around 6 months provided you’re pushing your limits and diversifying your activities, working your weaknesses etc. Okay, given that I want to do a trillion courses, I need to add another year to that, that’s a year and 6 months. Given that I don’t have 10 hours/day, nor am I in French-country-land-ment, let’s add another couple years.... umm, no room for Dutch, no time for writing anything more... must go...
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby rdearman » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:08 pm

I think you have misunderstood my point. My point was that courses do not go to C levels and therefore regardless of how many of them you study or for how long you are not getting the content that you need. It is like studying algebra books and expecting to learn calculus it will not happen.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:18 pm

rdearman wrote:I think you have misunderstood my point. My point was that courses do not go to C levels and therefore regardless of how many of them you study or for how long you are not getting the content that you need. It is like studying algebra books and expecting to learn calculus it will not happen.


No, I did understand that, I just neglected to answer it clearly.

Edit: Some courses are very much relevant to the C-levels. CLE’s Grammaire Progressive du Français - Niveau Perfectionnement, Part/Vol./Book 4 of Mauger’s Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises might scrape in to the C-level standard, all the C-level exam prep books.

Such content is condensed advanced C-level relevant material. Vocab and grammar relevant to C-levels can be rare in some native content. Books/courses that focus only on that content can be utter gold mines.

But your point is true, I feel, most of these courses won’t take one to C-levels alone. Exposure to and use of native content with some explicit advanced courses for intensive study is probably the ideal balance, but again, too little time, too stubborn, must do them all, now!!
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French

Postby garyb » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:25 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:That Luca polyglot dude, says from B2 to C1, if living in country and doing 10 hours a day of study will take you around 6 months provided you’re pushing your limits and diversifying your activities, working your weaknesses etc. Okay, given that I want to do a trillion courses, I need to add another year to that, that’s a year and 6 months. Given that I don’t have 10 hours/day, nor am I in French-country-land-ment, let’s add another couple years.... umm, no room for Dutch, no time for writing anything more... must go...
So if you could get there in X hours with method A, or reach the same destination in X+Y hours with methods A+B... Why bother with B? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with courses, but you seem to be saying yourself that they'd just slow you down. I'm not seeing their purpose here, except the C1 preparation ones if you're aiming for the exam.
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