Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Fortheo
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby Fortheo » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:52 am

It might just be one of those situations where, if you can't avoid it completely, then you and your wife may need to sit down and have a calm and serious discussion with your in-laws. I think it would be better if your wife is on your side and there with you when you talk to her parents.

Calmly and firmly state your points and your feelings about the situation, let them know how important speaking French with your daughter is to you, and tell them you'd like to find a solution that suits all of you. Be firm and don't budge on your values, but try not to blow up or give an ultimatum just to make your point unless you absolutely have to.

I want to stress that it would be best if your wife is on your side and fully supporting you while you have this convo with your in-laws.

That's my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

Good luck.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:29 pm

Well xmas celebrations went as well as they could've gone, i'd say, that is, with regards to the aforementioned language tensions. I was subdued, quiet, avoiding any normal volume French in close proximity to those who who have an issue with it. It was the best approach on a special occasion, I think. No one wants arguments with such festivities. Needless to say, I didn't feel completely at ease, that's certain and felt like the outsider who won't do as he's told and is just some kind of an asshole.

To top it off, and I really think this could be petty of me to mention this, but we were given a photo album as a gift from my sister-in-law for reference to have a nice keepsake of the family while in Saudi. My children, my wife and all of her family (siblings, uncle, aunt, parents) featured heavily. I was not in one photo. Not even on the cover, which was a photo taken at my wedding. Practically everyone else was in it. I wasn't. I thought I got along okay with her, and this had me questioning things. I know it was more than likely just a complete oversight on her part, as she really truly, no, I mean this, simply does not think sometimes, but still, it was a disappointing cap to a subdued celebration, for me and indicative of how I'm considered by my wife's family - barely tolerated is how I'd put it currently. Although we all essentially did enjoy ourselves and the food my mother in law prepared was fantastic. The setting, also beautiful.

Btw, I had in the end, decided not to speak English to my children as it just does not feel right. It's not the language I use with my children. I reserve the right to change this in future depending on circumstances, but I don't accept someone else forcing me to change the language I speak to my children when I am not willing to. I was willing, in my mind, to supply translations, and ever pre-prepared my daughter to help with this, but in the end I just ended up being very quiet and avoiding pen normal-volume use of the language in close proximity, as speaking French, in the manner I would normally, didn't feel right either. That was Xmas eve (day time). On Christmas Day we drove a few hours to the town I grew up in, to celebrate with my family. There, it was such a different situation for me personally. So at ease, fun for the kids with my sisters children, and us too. It was really nice. If only, if only...

The situation will evolve for future visits with the in-laws. Unfortunately I do not feel like I will ever have anyone on my side, so to speak, except for my wife. I think this not wanting to rock the boat stance is pretty well widespread throughout the family, although I shouldn't just say that when I really don't know, but it's a fair assumption, usually. My wife has discussed with me the possibility of staying elsewhere, so she's now clearly on my side. Initially it wasn't the way, but she's standing by me. Anyway, I felt somewhat wrong about airing this dirty laundry in my log, but it is language related, and it's a way of sorting through the situation, I guess.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:58 am

2019 Language Plans

From the Language related New Year's resolutions for 2019 thread:

PeterMollenburg wrote:I kind of can't be bothered with language style resolutions after a number of years in which I've studied as much as possible and don't foresee my drive dropping off, thus resolutions aren't really necessary. Also, given the fact that I really can't tell what the next year has in store for me in terms of free time, so I can't tell yet what I can do, as it's dependent on free time and I don't know my 2019 routine yet. Also, I don't want to be as selfish in 2019. Thus my resolutions are to be more present and therefore create more focus on task (whatever that may be - family, language study, surroundings), thereby maximising EVERYTHING.

What I will definitely do - continue to learn French, get more serious (consistent) with Dutch and commence Arabic.

What I reserve the right to maybe undertake depending on cirumstances, is basically more languages, but I think, realistically, and fairly, that's unlikely, so no point mentioning any other languages at this time.

Good luck to everyone in 2019 and I hope you all have a very productive, balanced, pleasant 2019!


2019 Communications
I am currently leaning towards either not doing a log here at all in 2019, or only when outside of Saudi Arabia - on holidays for example. I just think it's perhaps a better approach to stay present/focused, and there are some other reasons which I won't go into but probably don't need mentioning.

As I don't use social media, I am planning on sending out a semi-regular email blog-like update from time to time on our experiences in Saudi Arabia. I have already taken the liberty of adding some members to that list with whom I have had some email contact with up to this point. If you suspect you're on that (very short) list and don't wish to be, please let me know here via PM. As my updates here in 2019 are likely to be less detailed, and less frequent, if at all, if you want to stay in touch via email or receive these email updates, please PM me here asap, even if it's very short and quick. I will NOT harrass you with anything else via email. I will not harrass you at all. I'm likely to only write to you if I'm already in touch with you via email, or if you write to me to say/ask something/ make some comments.

I think i'll be remaining relatively active here up to the end of January or early Feb. I'll write a final post for this log prior to leaving Australia.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:24 pm

I've had an idea for a new challenge...

Perhaps it's been done before, or a variation of it.

A "365 day challenge"

The main goal: Study your chosen language(s) for at least 30 minutes a day for every single day of the year.

Over the years of language study the one thing that seems most important in language learning is remaining consistent. I've never been perfect, and I'd like to aim for a perfect year. A year without missing day I think would see vast improvements to one's chosen language(s), as I think a lot is lost when momentum wanes or comes to a grinding halt. Thus, it's become soooooo absolutely important that if you want to progress and progress well, you must NOT skip days, must NOT make exceptions, you MUST study every single day! Hate late nights? Hate the idea that there will be special days like Christmas in which you won't have time? Well, actually the idea is, no, there are no excuses, you must find the time.

Perhaps I could have a kind of log, but it would be a group one, if others were willing to join in on such a challenge. If the response is bigger than anticipated, then it wouldn't be my log, it would be a shared challenge. Well, these are just some thoughts I've had of late.

If you had not studied by midnight, that's okay, as long as you study before sleep would be the rule. If you nap 30 min after midnight but then suddenly wake to do your study, that would be okay, provided your longest period of sleep came after your study session.

Study would have to be discussed/defined more clearly as it would potentially be open to much debate.

Perhaps one could join with several languages, but have an order of priority so that if you come to a day in which you simply cannot make it through all your languages, failing the challenge in less important languages while surviving for the remaining important one(s), wouldn't be the end of the world.

Whoever makes it the furtherest through the year, wins. If there were more than one who made the entire year, then it might come down to either granting several winners of equal standing, or granting an overall winner based on who had studied the most by the end in terms of languages, hours, or everything combined.

If people express interest in such a challenge, I may post this in a separate thread, if not, it could fizz away into nothing, or I may even attempt it just by my lonesome.

Get a foot on, or two,
who am I even?
PM
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Sarafina
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby Sarafina » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:00 pm

That's a really good challenge. I really like it. I definitely need something like that for 2019.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:25 pm

Sarafina wrote:That's a really good challenge. I really like it. I definitely need something like that for 2019.


Cool, okay, based on the overwhelming response (and I've given this like, what, half an hour)... okay, joking of course (not about the half an hour).... either way i've decided to post this as a new thread as there are only limited days left in the year.

Given it's very late in the game and some people may want to join later, I think the official start date should be 1st Jan 2019, but for those who come late to the party allow for an extension perhaps, which sees them finish later as well.

Now copying this post and the previous one to a new thread, please reply there.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:19 pm

No missed days yet on the 365 day challenge, so that’s going well. I haven’t even added in here my 2018 French totals... maybe another time.

So I’ve been reviving my Dutch, plodding along with French and beginning Arabic. It’s all enjoyable, but I’m beginning to experience feelings of regret. You see I’m only doing the minimum 30 minutes each day lately, and if any extra it’s only small as there’s too much going on around me.

We are out of our house and awaiting visa’s. We were meant to already be in Saudi by now, and to top it off the consulate has just up and moved from Melbourne to Sydney without warning and no communication is occurring at all between the consulate and the recruiting company so we’re in limbo currently.

I’m enjoying the little Arabic that I’m doing, and of course Dutch is always fun (especially in these early stages), but I feel my French is suffering. I’m not comfortable with this at all and I am wondering whether or not I drop everything again and just focus on French for the coming year (in Saudi) and really genuinely push myself to break through this stagnant stage. I was labelling myself C1 at one point, but I have my doubts now. I’m definitely a B2, but how far beyond B2 is debatable. That doesn’t overly matter, but I just don’t like that i’m not advancing currently.

French only or not? That is the question.... The elusive C levels feel like they will remain elusive forever if I begin introducing other languages (which I have). Yet not studying other languages it’s potnetially shutting me (and my children) off from learning other languages other than French. Predicament. This is like the opposite of wanderlust, I have devotion lust, or commitment yearnings.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby Skynet » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:10 pm

It's great to hear from you, PM!

I am delighted to see that you have remained determined to stick to your plan despite all the hassles of moving to a different continent. I had to vanquish Dutch Without Toil and Spanish Without Toil back to the netherworld called Melkor's basement. I am surprised that the embassy was not in the capital (Canberra), and even more surprised that the KSA embassy did not communicate its relocation to its stakeholders well in advance. I mean Sydney is only a stone throw's away from Melbourne at a mere 880 kms (using the M31). :roll:

I am quite surprised that your French would suffer from a reduction in time spent on it in such a short amount of time. I was under the impression that the consensus around these parts was that B2 was the panacea to TL language decay. I have invested too much time in my French to even allow the slightest sign of TL decline. I can imagine that it would be 10x worse for you as you have invested FIVE years. If something is asphyxiating your French and you cannot accept that, please terminate your foray into a second/third language immediately. French also has tremendous sentimental importance to you as a lingua franca between you and your children. It is also your language of vehement opposition to the tyranny of overreaching in-laws. ;)

I still believe that you are at the C1 level, even if you don't see it yourself. After my B2 in March, I am going to slow my French down and focus primarily on German. Lawyer&Mom has shown me that you can be very confident and fluent in both, even at the B2 level. Having a string of C-level; languages is great, but being at a solid B2 is also very impressive.

Arabic is very demanding for us (L1 English speakers), and I think that the language will eventually crowd out your other interests (Dutch, Spanish, Norwegian and German). Since it is much easier to get more return on your time investment in IE languages, you may end up dropping Arabic for something else. Since your career lies in Europe, Dutch and French look like wise investments.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:38 pm

Skynet wrote:It's great to hear from you, PM!

I am delighted to see that you have remained determined to stick to your plan despite all the hassles of moving to a different continent. I had to vanquish Dutch Without Toil and Spanish Without Toil back to the netherworld called Melkor's basement. I am surprised that the embassy was not in the capital (Canberra), and even more surprised that the KSA embassy did not communicate its relocation to its stakeholders well in advance. I mean Sydney is only a stone throw's away from Melbourne at a mere 880 kms (using the M31). :roll:

I am quite surprised that your French would suffer from a reduction in time spent on it in such a short amount of time. I was under the impression that the consensus around these parts was that B2 was the panacea to TL language decay. I have invested too much time in my French to even allow the slightest sign of TL decline. I can imagine that it would be 10x worse for you as you have invested FIVE years. If something is asphyxiating your French and you cannot accept that, please terminate your foray into a second/third language immediately. French also has tremendous sentimental importance to you as a lingua franca between you and your children. It is also your language of vehement opposition to the tyranny of overreaching in-laws. ;)

I still believe that you are at the C1 level, even if you don't see it yourself. After my B2 in March, I am going to slow my French down and focus primarily on German. Lawyer&Mom has shown me that you can be very confident and fluent in both, even at the B2 level. Having a string of C-level; languages is great, but being at a solid B2 is also very impressive.

Arabic is very demanding for us (L1 English speakers), and I think that the language will eventually crowd out your other interests (Dutch, Spanish, Norwegian and German). Since it is much easier to get more return on your time investment in IE languages, you may end up dropping Arabic for something else. Since your career lies in Europe, Dutch and French look like wise investments.


I think for some people my feelings of regret (of not spending enough time with French) may come as no surprise.

Thank you for your reply Skynet. It’s great to hear from you too! I’m sure it was hard to vanquish the Dutch and Spanish courses as you did. Still, you have an incredibly full schedule and do manage to take on two IEL, and advance at a hot pace, so it’s doable. But then, we are talking about me, the rediculous one ;)

I have only taken the news from my wife throughout the course of my busy days re: the Saudi consulate/embassy. Now I would dare say the embassy is probably indeed in Canberra. A quick google search would suffice to fill that gap in knowledge, but then again i’m busy typing. I believe it was the consulate that moved from Melb to Syd. Yes it’s a mere 10 minutes up the road. Same occurred with Dutch consulate btw. They moved a few years back from Melb to Syd and when it came time for me te renew my p’port, we had to fly to Sydney! But hey, Australia is only slightly bigger than NL, so Sydney’s not far at all from Melb!

Yes, the feelings of my French slipping are odd. Then again I wonder about my capacity to learn sometimes. It seems I must HAMMER things into my head over several sittings for them to stick! So, with just 30 min/day of French (of some sort) or perhaps 45min lately, it just feels wrong. It at least feels as though I’m not advancing.

Am I C1? Well I ought to be, but am I? I can watch a series dubbed in French and still struggle a lot. I can listen to a French Harry Potter audiol book and still miss a lot. I think I have over-estimated my progress. MInd you, in some areas, perhaps I handle myself without many issues. I think I have been stuck in course land too long. Perhaps, since my italki exam prep tutor (previous examinor) gave a good deal of positive feedback, I do indeed touch on C1... but NOT always and NOT in every skill.

You know the risks of course-land, Skynet, you have spoken of them before. Thus, your approach is sound - massive amounts of initial study using courses, aiming to transition to native content asap.

I culled my French course list this morning (yet again) from something approaching 50 to a little under twenty (18 in other words). That’s still a LOT. However, perhaps if I dropped the other languages and focused on French for a year, I could make a pretty decent dent in those 18 courses. Oh, poor Dutch, what and when will you get your chance to shine? When PM stops pissing around with courses!!

What’s the good of the 18 courses I hear some people say! Thing is, I recently noted that of the 28 courses I have completed, only ONE of them was of a slightly advanced level!!! (Assimil Using French). 27 were beginner courses!!! So the 18 contain much second and third tier material. With a little help from someone ;) I might be able to tweak that final 18 and perhaps march on in 2019 on a French course mission, ignorant of my Arabic suroundings, ignorant of the importance of Dutch (hoping we’ll stay in S.A. for a 2nd year in which Dutch will rise to the forefront) and well just be immersed in French in the desert!
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and Dutch

Postby trui » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:12 am

I still think that many people underestimate the CEFR levels, and that's okay. Then again, it's hard not to considering some of the tests based on the CEFR. I can't judge your French so I don't know if you are, but I wouldn't stress about it.

Studying Dutch in Leiden, I've taken 5 courses taught in Dutch this semester and I'll be taking 6 courses next semester. IIRC, the courses I'm taking at the moment specifically about improving one's Dutch intend to take your active skills to a B1/B2 level, and they're no joke! On the intake tests, I just barely passed the listening test and didn't score that high on the reading test. I think that means I'm B1/B2 when it comes to my passive skills, and I certainly need it for the lectures! That's why you have to pass said intake tests before being able to follow the second year courses.

Anyways, whether or not I'm B1 or B2 or whatever, my point is that you should be concerned more about your abilities than labels (though of course tests are useful for employment...) And if you are B2, then you can be certain that it's a super solid B2 :) That's how I view my level. I'm working on further solidifying my level. Any progress I make solidifies it even more. And I don't know about you, but I kind of like the idea of becoming a rock solid B2 than a rather shakey C1. :)

Dutch is nice, but getting your French to be rock solid would be even nicer, non? That's what I'm trying to do with my Dutch. But only you can decide what's best for you.
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