The limits of comprehensible input?

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 293

Re: The limits of comprehensible input?

Postby SGP » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:45 am

As it is no secret, children keep learning by comprehensible input.
An adult could choose an approach that is (somewhat) similar.
But within different circumstances, no doubt.
Adults have their own learning advantages.

And what about at least skimming through a grammar book sometimes, in addition to being exposed to comprehensible input? This is a shortcut, unless one is able to spot "All of Those Grammar Patterns" anyway. And even if he/she really is able to do so, grammar books do have their own unique benefits, too.
1 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log


User avatar
Saim
Blue Belt
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:14 pm
Location: Rheinland
Languages: Native: English
Others: Catalan, Serbian, Spanish, Polish, Hungarian, Urdu, French etc.
Main focus: German
x 2314

Re: The limits of comprehensible input?

Postby Saim » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:56 am

SGP wrote:As it is no secret, children keep learning by comprehensible input.
An adult could choose an approach that is (somewhat) similar.
But within different circumstances, no doubt.
Adults have their own learning advantages.

And what about at least skimming through a grammar book sometimes, in addition to being exposed to comprehensible input? This is a shortcut, unless one is able to spot "All of Those Grammar Patterns" anyway. And even if he/she really is able to do so, grammar books do have their own unique benefits, too.


Agreed, although a good grammar book (at least if geared towards foreign learners) would also include example sentences, which I would still classify as a form of input.
0 x
log

شجرِ ممنوع 152

User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 293

Re: The limits of comprehensible input?

Postby SGP » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:12 am

Saim wrote:
SGP wrote:As it is no secret, children keep learning by comprehensible input.
An adult could choose an approach that is (somewhat) similar.
But within different circumstances, no doubt.
Adults have their own learning advantages.

And what about at least skimming through a grammar book sometimes, in addition to being exposed to comprehensible input? This is a shortcut, unless one is able to spot "All of Those Grammar Patterns" anyway. And even if he/she really is able to do so, grammar books do have their own unique benefits, too.


Agreed, although a good grammar book (at least if geared towards foreign learners) would also include example sentences, which I would still classify as a form of input.


Saim, du bist "überall", oder was? (Saim, you are "everywhere", aren't you?). ;)

Yes, grammar books often do contain example sentences as well. This reminds me of two books by the PONS Verlag (printing house) about Spanish and French I had been working my way through some time ago. Each of them consists of several parts. There are lists of words and phrases, verb conjugation tables, and grammar notes, including (more) example sentences. I split those (used) books into several smaller parts myself, and by that, I mean "disassembling" them. So I had many micro-sized books for reading in an Immersion and Exposure Based Manner.

By the way, I already have been thinking of contacting you today because of a very nice language topic that just might be of some benefit to both of us. And I didn't remove that idea from my "to do queue" either.
0 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log


User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: The limits of comprehensible input?

Postby Serpent » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:47 pm

patrickwilken wrote:
DaveAgain wrote:The testyourvocab.com (english) website found a strong correlation between reading and vocabulary size.
http://testyourvocab.com/blog/


What the data on this site shows is that native people immersed in their L1, going to school etc still don't peak in their language abilities (at least vocabulary) until their mid-thirties. So I always find it a bit bizarre when language learners think they speak like a well-educated native after 3-4 years work. If you can get to that level so quickly (with or without CI) then you should share the methods with the international school committees as apparently no school in the world is teaching their native language efficiently.
I'm late but... I don't think anyone claims they can discuss *everything* an educated native knows. Typically they mean topics that make one come across as an educated native, such as literature, art, philosophy, professional topics, hobbies. Besides, at school and university you spend a lot of time learning how things work, and in your L2 you mostly just need the vocabulary to talk about that. (I do think most people underestimate just how much vocabulary you learn at school, perhaps because they can't use much of it with academic precision - but they still have a general idea, and even if you don't argue about certain hot topics on the internet, you still get exposed to this vocab every now and then)
And then there are topics that you didn't learn at school but eventually need to deal with as an adult, such as taxes, car repairs and whatnot. Also any new hobbie you start (I think emk wrote about learning to kayak via French materials?).
I think people are misreading what I said a bit. I am (admittedly self assessed) at C1 for reading and listening in German. ...

But it's still frustrating not being able to process German in the same way as English. I have been getting into audiobooks this year, and slowly cranking up the speed. I mostly listen to audiobooks at somewhere like 1.7x-2.2x normal speed, Youtube videos at 1.5x-2x (I can't listen to Youtube videos at normal speed anymore, people speak sooooo slowly). But if I try to do the same trick in German I quickly hit a wall. I want my German to be as good as my English, but that's going to take a long time.
The goals you're describing are above C2. (and not everyone can do that even in L1) Or at least they're beyond the scale of CEFR - I guess it's possible to learn to listen to accelerated audio but not reach C1/C2.
3 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: California, Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - German (B2/C1) on/off study: Persian, Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 7030
Contact:

Re: The limits of comprehensible input?

Postby zenmonkey » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:30 am

Valddu wrote:I found this surprising since this seems to go against the comprehensible input theory I’ve been reading so much about and incorporating into my studies over the last year. The younger brother has lots of input as part of his day-to-day, but rarely needs to speak. As a result, that skill is comparatively weak. I would have thought that this isn’t possible—the constant comprehensible input should automatically develop output that is grammatically correct to other native speakers.

Is this a fluke? Or does this an example of how comprehensible input can only take you so far?


Not a fluke. What really happened is that in his environment, his need for output was focused on a language continuum of the two languages that was heavily weighed to one of them. If you spend any time around bilingual communities this is quite common, particularly when the parents focus on one local language.

Does this negate Krashen's theory?
Yes, no, maybe? It's a bit of a mishmash whether 1) acquisition requires meaningful interaction 2) and for it to be meaningful requires output.

If you think Krashen's theory means that one will learn to speak well just from hearing and never producing, then yes, it really invalidates CI, since many people can have relatively advanced listening and understanding ability without the ability to speak.

If you consider his theory to focus on acquisition and not production, then CI works out, the person in your example has acquired the language (they understand it). As far as I've read, and I'm no expert, it doesn't state that you do not need speaking practice to be productive. It's just that being productive isn't a large part of acquiring the language.

Personally, I think this is partially wrong. I truly believe that the act of speaking, echoing and repetition has a positive impact on the subconscious acquisition. I know I'm able to create better "hooks" simply by a) increasing sensations (input, visual clues, sound, touch, and production.
4 x
I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests