Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[PeterMollenburg]

I find it intriguing that I have been censoring myself here on the forum... When you consider the potential direction we are headed will be filled with more and more electonic communications, then we are really headed down censorship lane to the max. People are doing the work for the system.

And for those who do not believe that a conspiracy could be that big (i.e. 'global'). Think again. The heirarchy that is human economics and power structures is the perfect control system. ... you're going to toe the line so you can get that next pay cheque/check. ... you've a tendency to rant about so called conspiracies (they are not), politics etc and you also consider the fact that all this information is recorded somewhere and that it often brings more trouble than it's worth, because people prefer not to rock the boat... well are you going to eventually shut your mouth?

PM, have you ever heard of a Panopticon? Jeremy Bentham in the 1780s theorised that one could modify the behavior of inmates if the institution had its own Barad-dûr centrally elevated position from which they (inmates) could be monitored by a single watchman. Logically, it is impossible for Sauron a watchman to be omnipresent, the inmates cannot know when they are being watched or not being watched and default to auto-censoring and self-behavioral adjustment.

Fast-forward 23 decades later and you see that we live in a society where people will self-censor because they think that they are being watched. I highly doubt that someone is sitting behind all 200 million CCTVs in China or the 4.5 million in the UK (even with the AI offerings from Amazon Rekognition et al). Just the mere thought that you might possibly be under surveillance is enough for you to act, say and ultimately think in the way Big Brother wants you to.

...in Saudi (provided I can access the site okay).

I will send you a list of VPNs that you can use to circumnavigate any pesky KSA filters.

I have not heard of Panopticon, the theory is interesting.

Yep, we are definitely self censoring. Perhaps some of the behavioural changes we take on are a result of living in nations? Once upon a time Italy was a collection of independent states and cities, Germany was not united, only a smal percentage of French people spoke French. Today these countries are united within, and in the EU. It is much easier for each leader or the media of each country to reach almost all of their people. Now within the supranational state, the E.U. English is rampant. It just so happens this is the language of the biggest empire on the globe in history. English is growing everywhere. No, I don't hate English. Soon, it may turn out that the entire globe will be reached via one tongue. Much easier to control them all then, and if we're all watching the same shows, have the seem degree of morality (or lack of) we'll certainly be much more easily manipulated.

I purchased a decent VPN some months ago, but we can certainly discuss this further (thank you).

[PeterMollenburg]

It's always better to read about "conspiracy" than the round of "multiple-languages-learners'" bashing that was the previous page of this thread. And we hadn't had such a session for a long time here at LLORG.

I feel sorry for Norwegian but I'm not jealous of you and Ogrim becoming BFF. Not at all.

iguanamon never managed to convince me of anything. He didn't try that hard, though. I think at my early HTLAL months Serpent managed to convince me that multiple language learning is legal, ethical, eco-friendly, kosher, halal and the likes (sustainable was a claim of my own )

Anyway, just some food for thought: if I had a globally attractive career and were willing to relocate, I wouldn't have any problems in France, Norway, Germany or Georgia. I'd struggle to get a piece of paper that proved that, but in practical terms I'd definitely be way above the tourist level in any of these languages (not mentioning Spanish-speaking countries and Italy that go without saying).

Glad to see you feel that the atmosphere here is more conducive to your learning style. Do know I've long admired your work ethic and accomplishments as they unfold, iguanamon, as do many of us on the forum. I'm not sure Ogrim would agree with any of my above posts, so BFF is only fanciful thinking (out loud) on my part. I do hold him in high esteem however, especially since he has managed to be friendly to me despite my views. You know in the past I absolutely loved the idea of the EU, so I can see aspects in Ogrim of myself. I still love that idea, but feel the reality of the EU is far what we are told, and in fact aims to destroy what I love about Europe (my opinion).

As for multi-lingual learning bashing. I may/ may not have been part of that. It was/has been important for me in attempting to get off the ground and reach an advanced level in one language all the while being very busy (like many people). The change in atmosphere is possibly related to me feeling secure with my French (at least more than I used to be) and ready to take on more. This has meant a change in thought as well. Fear holds me back from taking on more languages than the chosen three now. But, given my personality, I think three is a good number. I'm also sad Norwegian is out of the picture, honestly

[PeterMollenburg]

....perhaps I should start a new log once I relocate....

And keep politics/conspiracies out of it? Food for thought, as Ani (although I certainly disagree on many a topic with you), may have a very valid point. Perhaps it's not about self censorship here, perhaps it IS about being respectful. Still, whether it is or isn't, whether I decide to create a new log or not with said rules in place of not, I still feel what I have posted above is truth, it just may not be the place for it (I know it never has been, you say). Maybe it has been my place for it, but maybe I do need to shut up whether it's about respect or not.

[Ani]

Ironically, I think Ani, you and I connect in some way, and I believe it is mainly on a language learning level, with a bit of human touch thrown in. Your wanting to steer clear of commenting on my posts at times (which I dare say many ppl do something similar) and that is fair, is equally met by me steering clear of involving myself too much in your posts.

And do you know how much that friggin sucks??

I should probably take this back to PM/email but it started here so.. I had really enjoyed our friendship & conversations. I wanted to be friends. But I don't get what you're doing. I just told you (in not as many words) that I'm really uncomfortable with your ranting on non-language topics, and you respond to my post with a giant wall of it?? I don't want you to avoid my log. I valued our conversions. This is not us avoiding each other to avoid conflict. This is you choosing a soap box over real people who would like to connect with you.

[PeterMollenburg]

Ironically, I think Ani, you and I connect in some way, and I believe it is mainly on a language learning level, with a bit of human touch thrown in. Your wanting to steer clear of commenting on my posts at times (which I dare say many ppl do something similar) and that is fair, is equally met by me steering clear of involving myself too much in your posts.

And do you know how much that friggin sucks??

I should probably take this back to PM/email but it started here so.. I had really enjoyed our friendship & conversations. I wanted to be friends. But I don't get what you're doing. I just told you (in not as many words) that I'm really uncomfortable with your ranting on non-language topics, and you respond to my post with a giant wall of it?? I don't want you to avoid my log. I valued our conversions. This is not us avoiding each other to avoid conflict. This is you choosing a soap box over real people who would like to connect with you.

My reply to your comments led into a rant. I'll say no more. I have removed my post.

[Melkor]

PM, have you ever heard of a Panopticon? Jeremy Bentham in the 1780s theorised that one could modify the behavior of inmates if the institution had its own Barad-dûr centrally elevated position from which they (inmates) could be monitored by a single watchman. Logically, it is impossible for Sauron a watchman to be omnipresent, the inmates cannot know when they are being watched or not being watched and default to auto-censoring and self-behavioral adjustment.

Fast-forward 23 decades later and you see that we live in a society where people will self-censor because they think that they are being watched. I highly doubt that someone is sitting behind all 200 million CCTVs in China or the 4.5 million in the UK (even with the AI offerings from Amazon Rekognition et al). Just the mere thought that you might possibly be under surveillance is enough for you to act, say and ultimately think in the way Big Brother wants you to.

You and your LOTR references. This is absolutely fascinating. How on earth do you know these things?

....perhaps I should start a new log once I relocate.... And keep politics/conspiracies out of it? .

I think not! To have a truly diverse community, we should have all view points which can be shared in a sensitive and logical way. This is the reason why people who discuss politics, conspiracies, sexual orientation, preferred genders and faith have not been banned. These topics are all controversial and add nothing to the language learning process, but are embraced by the mods because these opinions are not being weaponized to harm others and cannot be separated from the respective language learners.

And do you know how much that friggin sucks??

It is very good to see that Ani exemplifies this overarching tolerance. Whilst she does not necessarily agree with your views, she is able to follow your thread and interact with you in a civilized way.

[Xmmm]

Hi Peter,


“we cease to be so angry once we cease to be so hopeful”
― Seneca


I need to add Latin to my language list just so I can read the Stoics, sigh ... anyway, just a word to the wise, and I do count you among the wise.

Best,

Xmmm

[PeterMollenburg]

I just want to make it clear that my posts are not about insulting people. Whether you feel disrespected or insulted, that is not my aim, nor has it ever been (aside from, admittedly, the odd post in anger). I do respect others. I have often made posts to encourage people to self reflect, but it's clear many people do not want to read what I have to say, and often for very good reason.

It's perhaps arrogant of me to think I can or even should attempt to exert change when people are perfectly happy with their own belief systems and ideologies, but what's wrong with a little food for thought (that grows too big!)? While I feel I have been honest/true to what I feel is necessary to be conveyed to others, others equally feel strong conviction for their set of beliefs, so it's likely that many people do not feel comfortable with what I have to say at times, and that makes sense. To be fair to myself however, I guess I've been asking more for self reflection than anything, but the way that I convey it is probably more like it's a solid set of beliefs that one must understand.

I could get annoyed by others trying to convince me of something I simply to do not believe. People come here for language learning and their ideologies political or otherwise are often at odds with mine, thus, as I believe Ani has brought to the forefront of this recent direction of my log, I'm likely choosing the wrong things to discuss in the wrong place. Sure some people appreciate it, even would prefer me to discuss more of the same, yet there exists a good number who, perhaps fairly, do not want to read such things here. But, should I be modifying my behaviour (writing) to appease others? This is what I'm ultimately unsure about. Still, as time marches on, the belief that I should not discuss such topics is likely to grow louder, but that doesn't necessarily make it correct.

In everyday life we curb our enthusiasm, I think. Perhaps I was confusing censorship with, as Ani mentioned, being appropriate for the setting. If you're a devout religious person, you love to share this love with other fellow believers, but you wouldn't normally preach to others who don't want preaching to. if you're a gamer, you love talking about gaming with your gaming friends and generally keep the excitement to your gaming circle. If you're a mad (fill in the blank) you share with other mad (fill in the blank) and tend not to annoy others who aren't interested in such things. Here, we're all about languages, not belief systems, not religion, not corruption, not conspiracies. Ani you were right.... for you. Others do appreciate it. But some definitely do not. Writing online is different too, it's not direct engagement. If you don't like something you really should just avoid it, as opposed to attempting to make the author write how you want him/her to write. So what do I do? Well, one constraint is forum rules. Provided I'm within the rules then technically, I should be able to discuss such topics, but as I said, as time marches on and time waits for no man, and is indeed marching on, the tolerance here and elsewhere is reducing, it seems.

I don't feel I need to take back anything I've said recently, however. Although i did completely remove one post. I should've posted it separately to my reply, that would've been more tactful. Still, there have been some interesting discussions, some more tumultuous than others, and at times I've had some great support for my sharing on my convictions. But this is the place for language learners and enthusiasts, is it not? I guess I've not really drawn a conclusive answer or decision, but it's not necessary for this log, as this log has reached it's end.

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With regards to language learning, this log was mainly about my journey in reaching an advanced level of French. Perhaps if I return to focusing on the DALF C1 or C2 exam, then that might warrant reigniting this log, otherwise I think this log has reached it's end. I am not bowing out emotionally, nor in reaction to anything in particular. I just think this has actually reached it's conclusion (at least for now), and its equally fitting, given I can't decide on what's right for the content of my log.

I may or may not write a new log here, time will tell, but I suspect I will.

Thank you all for tagging along for the ride. This log began on HTLAL on the 2nd of Jan 2014 (link on first page of this log if interested) and continued here. It's become massive, as any log would with a person that raises touchy topics, needs a lot of feedback on language learning techniques and loves to write (too much) about himself. Thank you all for your support and for challenging me along the way. I don't feel like I've accomplished my goal as I am not holding a C1 nor a C2 DALF certificate in my hands, but it's not been a failure either, so I'm okay with where I am with my French. No, I don't have the certificate (yet), but I am doing pretty bloody well with the language. Even, if I am not C1, I feel very comfortable now with French, but I will and shall continue to learn the language perhaps for the rest of my life, as there is so much to learn.

I am using French every single day in my life. I am reading, watching, studying, speaking (tons) with my daughter. I'm so impressed with my children and their French! With my daughter there were some tough times, but now she changes effortlessly and fluidly between English solely for those who speak English and French solely with me. She loves French programs on TV just as much as English (if not more), she sings in French, speaks to her brother in French, plays in French (and English too - about 50/50). My son I think has more French words at his disposal than English and hums French songs. Very cute. They both love Kirikou! And they love French story time with their dad.

Dutch is coming into the picture, and I think I love it equally but in a different way to French. I cannot believe 2011 is so long ago now when my wife and I were in the Netherlands. Learning Dutch brings back memories. I have been reading Dutch stories to the kids but I am considering teaching it properly to the children from 2019. That is, a target of speaking in Dutch to them 50% of the time, but we'll see.

As for Arabic, I've no idea what the future holds for me with this language. It may play a big role in my life, it may be small. It's a language I will attempt to get to know because we will be in Saudi Arabia, not because I've always wanted to learn it, nor can I say I've recently become enamored with it, as I haven't it. But to be fair, I still don't know a word yet. That says something - First, I'm busy trying to get ready for the move! Secondly, if I really loved the idea of learning it, i'd probably already know some words. Still, I once hated French (literally), and when I first heard a good deal of Dutch, my ears did not like it! Yet I love them both today!

Norwegian is tugging at me, Spanish is alluring (and very useful/widespread), German is my old friend I lost touch with in high school, and as my hair becomes greyer (yikes), German now feels soooo long ago.

Best of luck people with your language learning!

[Ogrim]

It's always better to read about "conspiracy" than the round of "multiple-languages-learners'" bashing that was the previous page of this thread. And we hadn't had such a session for a long time here at LLORG.

I feel sorry for Norwegian but I'm not jealous of you and Ogrim becoming BFF. Not at all.

I'm not sure Ogrim would agree with any of my above posts, so BFF is only fanciful thinking (out loud) on my part. I do hold him in high esteem however, especially since he has managed to be friendly to me despite my views. You know in the past I absolutely loved the idea of the EU, so I can see aspects in Ogrim of myself. I still love that idea, but feel the reality of the EU is far what we are told, and in fact aims to destroy what I love about Europe (my opinion).

I really did not want to enter this discussion, but as I've been mentioned twice I felt I had to say a couple of things.

Expugnator, I hope you did not think I was part of the "multiple-languages-learners'" bashing - my little rabbit story was on the contrary a (failed?) humorous attempt at showing that learning multiple languages is possible, as long as you focus on one at a time. In any case, I normally don't try to convince others to do this or that - I admire your ability to study so many languages in parallel, it is absolutely amazing, but I also admired PM's persistency and focus on French for so long, resisting any wanderlust. We are all different, and need to find out what works for us as individuals.

As for PM and I being BFF, well, I took that as a good joke since both of us purchased the same Arabic course at the same time. That said, I'd actually like the thought of meeting up with PM in person at one point and talk about languages and life over a beer or two. I'm sure we could have a nice friendly fight, metaphorically speaking .

PM, you are right, I don't agree with a lot of what you post, but as I respect you, I choose to ignore and not engage with most of your non-language related postings. I admit that sometimes they annoy me, but you also contribute a lot to the forum and you have interesting things to say about your experience learning French, so of course I am friendly - I always try to be by the way. The thing is, if I want to discuss politics, relgion or conspiracy theories online, I can easily find hundreds of places on the internet to do that, one more outrageous than the other. I don't want to engage in such debates here, I come to LLorg to talk about languages and language-related stuff, like literature, music and travel. Sure, sometimes it is inevitable to touch on politics, but when I do myself I always try to do it in a neutral way, not promoting my own views on Brexit, big business, Russia, the Middle East or whatever. And that is all I have to say in this discussion. Best of luck chasing the French, the Dutch and the Arabic rabbit!

[iguanamon]

In regards to the forum specifically, yes, self-censorship is the price we pay for having a nice place to visit without having to deal with the crap on the rest of the internet. Here, the forum is all about languages and language-learning. We grow into a community with this one aspect in common. Outside of the forum we are quite diverse. We are so diverse that if we open that pandora's box of "come on, we're all adults here we can talk about politics and such without any worries" it almost always ends up badly. We make friends here and as a result we often feel like we are probably like minded because of our interaction around and about language-learning... so, it follows that our other interactions outside of language-learning will be fine too? That's not necessarily so in such a diverse, international forum.

There's more than enough controversy in language-learning without having to bring geo-politics and conspiracy theory into it, at least in my opinion. It's not like there are no other places to go to express ourselves freely. There's always twitter, facebook, reddit, blogging, etc. ad-infinitum to provide that outlet.

...iguanamon never managed to convince me of anything. He didn't try that hard, though. ...

As to multiple language bashing, Expug, I have never advised you not to learn multiple languages. I would not have advised PM to pare down his list if he hadn't asked me specifically for my advice. I took into account his language-learning history here over several years and at HTLAL to inform my advice to him specifically and nobody else and I didn't do it in public but privately. My advice to PM was to him personally and based on my observations of him and his learning style and not meant for anyone else on the forum. I respect, admire and am in awe of what you do in language-learning every day, Expug. Many of your votes here are from me. Oh, yeah, PM will still be learning multiple languages simultaneously with what he has chosen to do. He just won't have multiple beginner languages going on at the same time. Knowing PM, he'll probably change his mind back anyway in a month or two

My position on learning multiple languages simultaneously is very different for monolinguals than for experienced learners who have already learned at least one language to a high level. That's well known here and it is based on my observations of many monolingual (not having learned a language to at least B2 yet) members who have tried learning multiple languages simultaneously without managing to advance any of them to B2 or higher. Personally, I don't care what anyone wants to do in language-learning as long as they're having fun doing it and it is useful for them. If a learner is a monolingual beginner and wants to learn multiple languages simultaneously and asks whether that is a good idea (meaning will they be able to learn all of them to a high level), I respond with what I have observed here over the years of learners in a similar situation, but I may just decide to not say anything from here on out and just let these folks find out for themselves.

I wish you best of luck in language-learning whatever you wish to do, PM. Bòn chans !