Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[PeterMollenburg]

C'mon... you saw it coming....

Now after reading through this thread on learning Arabic (2015 on HTLAL), which Xenops had posted somewhere on LLORG: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=0&TPN=1

I'm reconsidering Arabic. I mean, I'll be there, on location. I have felt that, as probably noted, that it's just a little crazy to ignore the local language while there... still Arabic scares me (the immense complications involved that are not present with, say... French!). And I've been living in a French world while in Australia for such a long time now and it's often seemed a little disconnected. I don't know, I'm confused...

[renaissancemedici]

If you plan to stay there a long time then I think it's worth it. If not, then satisfy your wanderlust with conversational language and don't lose your French exam momentum.

[MattNeilsen]

C'mon... you saw it coming....

Now after reading through this thread on learning Arabic (2015 on HTLAL), which Xenops had posted somewhere on LLORG: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=0&TPN=1

I'm reconsidering Arabic. I mean, I'll be there, on location. I have felt that, as probably noted, that it's just a little crazy to ignore the local language while there... still Arabic scares me (the immense complications involved that are not present with, say... French!). And I've been living in a French world while in Australia for such a long time now and it's often seemed a little disconnected. I don't know, I'm confused...

Give in to the dark side and come join us in Team Middle East! We need more love for Semitic languages around here...

[PeterMollenburg]

If you plan to stay there a long time then I think it's worth it. If not, then satisfy your wanderlust with conversational language and don't lose your French exam momentum.

Thanks for your comments renaissancemedici. We are thinking we will be there for two years at this point, but the reality on the ground might be different.

Still, going with that time frame, I kinda think I’d be mad not to take advantage of the situation and our time there.

C'mon... you saw it coming....

Now after reading through this thread on learning Arabic (2015 on HTLAL), which Xenops had posted somewhere on LLORG: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=0&TPN=1

I'm reconsidering Arabic. I mean, I'll be there, on location. I have felt that, as probably noted, that it's just a little crazy to ignore the local language while there... still Arabic scares me (the immense complications involved that are not present with, say... French!). And I've been living in a French world while in Australia for such a long time now and it's often seemed a little disconnected. I don't know, I'm confused...

Give in to the dark side and come join us in Team Middle East! We need more love for Semitic languages around here...

Hi MattNeilson, I shall venture over to the dark side, for an initial visit. You know, suss out what life’s like on campus
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I’ve now compiled a French list of learning resources and an English one. My goal is to use French based resources as much as possible.

Ideally, I would aim for two to three hours a day of Arabic study time. If I drop all formal study of French for the two years it won’t hurt my French, as I will use native French content in my down time to maintain the language (books, series mainly). I could even progress a little depending on how much time I have.

Norwegian I really don’t know what to do, as my daughter would like to learn some, and that requires me to impart knowledge I don’t currently have. Therefore, studying/learning Norwegian would be required, but time is limited. Do I put that on hold too? Keep in mind we’re likely to never return to S.A. Norwegian is almost as distant from the local culture as one can get.

Which raises another topic. Most ressources I’ve found are for learning MSA or literary Arabic, which from my understanding is MSA with a sprinkling of dialectual influences perhaps. None of my resources in French focus on the particular dialects of Saudi. One French ressource is a little broader, focusing on Gulf Arabic. Some of the English resources focus on Gulf Arabic and Saudi Arabic, but unfortunately not the Najdi dialect of the capital, Riyadh.

Finding a good French-Arabic phonetic dictionary is also appearing tricky. I’m open to suggestions. A good picture/visual French-Arabic dictionary would be great too, and one with phonetics invaluable. I could add some new French vocabulary to my repertoire during my Arabic studies at little cost in terms of time on Arabic.

Here are my ressource lists so far (I don’t currently possess anything on these lists):

Manuels En Français pour apprendre l’arabe :

1. Assimil Apprendre L’Arabe Faux Débutants (MSA)
2. Assimil Arabe Débutants - Les cahiers d’exercices (MSA)
3. Assimil Arabe Les Bases Débutants - Les cahiers d’ecriture (MSA)
4. Assimil Arabe Faux Débutants - Les cahiers d’exercices (MSA)
5. Assimil l’arabe des pays du Golfe
6. Arabe Audio en Parallèle
7. Glossika Arabe-Français
8. 40 Leçons pour parler Arabe (livre + 2 CD)
9. Arabe - Grammaire Active - exposé des règles, exercices et corrigés
10. Arabe : Les verbes
11. Méthode 90. Arabe Pratique de Bases (Arabe débutant 1 leçon par jour pendant 3 mois)
12. Assimil L’Arabe (livre + 2CD)
13. Manuel d’arabe littéral
14. Manuel d'arabe en ligne: Les bases de l'arabe en 50 semaines -Tome I
15. Manuel d'arabe en ligne: Les bases de l'arabe en 50 semaines -Tome II
16. Manuel d'arabe en ligne: Les bases de l'arabe en 50 semaines -Tome III
17. Manuel d’Arabe Moderne 1
18. Manuel d'arabe en ligne: Les bases de l'arabe en 50 semaines -Tome IV (pas encore disponible)
19. Manuel d'arabe en ligne: Les bases de l'arabe en 50 semaines -Tome V (pas encore disponible)
20. Manuel d’Arabe Moderne 2
21. Manuel d'arabe en ligne: Les bases de l'arabe en 50 semaines -Tome VI (pas encore disponible)
22. Manuel d'arabe en ligne: Les bases de l'arabe en 50 semaines -Tome VII (pas encore disponible)
23. Assimil Perfectionnement Arabe
********************************************

Manuels En Anglais pour apprendre l’arabe:

1. The Arabic Alphabet: How to Read & Write It
2. Living Language Arabic Complete Ed. (MSA)
3. TY Arabic Complete Course (Jack Smart, 2003)
4. Colloquial Arabic of the Gulf and Saudi Arabia (1984)
5. Mastering Arabic 1
6. DLI Arabic Saudi Headstart
7. Basic Arabic: A Grammar and Workbook
8. Mastering Arabic Script
9. Mastering Arabic Grammar
10. Mastering Arabic Vocabulary and Pronunciation
11. FSI Saudi Arabic
12. Arabic vs Arabic A Dialect Sampler
13. FSI Written Arabic
14. DLI Arabic General
15. Mastering Arabic 2

Disclaimer: I’m not planning on using/purchasing all these resources (unless I really progress a long way down that path). I would only obtain two or three courses at a time (depending on their relevant size and focus). Once complete, I would source the next most appropriate on the list et ainsi de suite. What’s that you say? Good bye Pete Mollenburg, see you in ten or twenty years?

[Sarafina]

Best of luck in your move and the DALF exam.

If you're only learning Arabic to have a general conversation with the Arabic-speaking community around you. You might be better off investing more time learning the dialect relevant to you.
You might find this article to be quite useful considering the author has a high level of proficiency in standard Arabic and a couple of other dialects and in addition he has actually lived in a couple of Arabic-speaking countries. And he argues in favour of learning a dialect before undertaking Modern Standard Arabic and you might find the reasons that he argues in favour of that may apply to you. https://www.mezzoguild.com/how-to-start ... ng-arabic/

I've heard good things about this site and it's quite a valuable resource in having a decent foundation. They offer audio and video material on the Saudi dialect. https://www.talkinarabic.com/

[Xenops]

C'mon... you saw it coming....

Now after reading through this thread on learning Arabic (2015 on HTLAL), which Xenops had posted somewhere on LLORG: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=0&TPN=1

I'm reconsidering Arabic. I mean, I'll be there, on location. I have felt that, as probably noted, that it's just a little crazy to ignore the local language while there... still Arabic scares me (the immense complications involved that are not present with, say... French!). And I've been living in a French world while in Australia for such a long time now and it's often seemed a little disconnected. I don't know, I'm confused...

This one? https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7244&p=89613

I am also contemplating applying to be an ESL teacher in South Korea...But I don't know any Korean. The job opportunities look appealing, but so does the county: the reason I haven't started Korean seriously is because I'm already learning Japanese. If I was given a proper excuse to learn the language, I would somehow fit time for Korean study. Or maybe I don't need an excuse, as I remember Tarvos' quote from the Arabic thread:

Stop contemplating it and start learning it. No language was ever learned sitting around and pondering.

This is just my thinking out loud: if I was to move to another country, I personally would learn as much of the language as I could.

[zenmonkey]

Stop contemplating it and start learning it. No language was ever learned sitting around and pondering.

This is just my thinking out loud: if I was to move to another country, I personally would learn as much of the language as I could.

Pretty much the same thinking. As a permanent ex-pat or immigrant, I'm all about learning the local language.
However, I do see a lot of English speaking ex-pats that do not make the effort or don't pick up the tools for learning the local language - while I feel that they are missing out on something ... well, not my monkeys, not my circus.

MP, if you fear that you will spend too much time falling into the hole of language obsessiveness with the start of Arabic, perhaps the issue isn't Arabic... and acquiring the tools to not have an obsessive attitude towards an objective might help you in the long term...

How could you manage working on Arabic casually and joyfully?

[PeterMollenburg]

Best of luck in your move and the DALF exam.

Thank you Sarafina. I’ve just learned now that local Alliance Française will be holding the C2 exam this November as well, they were just late to post the date, compared to all the other DELF/DALF exams. If you’re reading that and not following, I was considering sitting C2 but then went for C1 due to C2 not being available this Nov and Cavesa’s wise words. I have re-evaluated now and will still go ahead with C1. Realistically, I might be able to somehow pass a C2 (long-shot), but in reality I am not at the C2 level, so C2 can wait. It gives me an excuse to stay in touch or keep slowly advancing my French on the sidelines anyway.

If you're only learning Arabic to have a general conversation with the Arabic-speaking community around you. You might be better off investing more time learning the dialect relevant to you.
You might find this article to be quite useful considering the author has a high level of proficiency in standard Arabic and a couple of other dialects and in addition he has actually lived in a couple of Arabic-speaking countries. And he argues in favour of learning a dialect before undertaking Modern Standard Arabic and you might find the reasons that he argues in favour of that may apply to you. https://www.mezzoguild.com/how-to-start ... ng-arabic/

Awesome link, thank you Sarafina! I have been reading through the articles and this one in particluar... https://www.talkinarabic.com/learn-modern-standard-arabic-or-a-dialect/ ...and not just the article itself, but the comments below provide some powerful pro’s and con’s of learning dialect first vs MSA first.

At one point I had thought that learning the dialect makes most sense. Then, ressources are a bit thin on the ground, so I compiled a list of both MSA and dialect, but have realistically only found a couple of ressources relevant to Saudi. I don’t even think they’re necessarily the dialect variety spoken in Riyadh, but still much closer than say Egypt.

In short it would be best for me to study the dialect I believe, since I will be on location in one location as opposed to travelling throughout North Africa and the Middle East or meeting with Arab speakers from all over in my day to day living.

However.... with French I’ve learned a lot from listening, watching, reading and courses. The majority of the content available to me for learning Arabic (Saudi Najdi Arabic vs MSA) is available in MSA.

As I will be the main carer for our children, I am unsure as to how often I will get out of the compound (home to westerners from the west and perhaps some domestic staff here and there from non-Arabic speaking backgrounds as well). Traffic accidents are a concern, as they are a real danger in Riyadh from what I hear, so i’m not sure exactly how much I will be out and about as it might be better to avoid it to some extent, out of safety concerns. Yes I do want to interact with locals, but i’m just unsure, as rediculous as this may seem, how often that will occur.

Perhaps I need a different approach as Arabic is not French, the situation will be VERY different and the resources available a very different situation as well. It would make absolute sense, to interact as much as possible with locals, since i’ll be there only for a limited time, and in contrast to my learning of French, that’s the complete opposite. All the more reason to learn the local dialect. But what about TV and reading?

Do I wait until I return home and then move on to MSA, which is where I will have little in the way of access to native speakers (dialect) and then would it seem absolutely logical to focus on MSA. But how often will I realistically be outside the compound?

Perhaps I should study both? But then it could be to the detriment of ever having a decent conversation in the local dialect while on location simply because of insufficient time on task.

But what about reading and TV? Perhaps I should do both but with this in mind- get out and about, mix with locals as much as realistically possible and that i’m comfortable with, and while at home in the compound (and not able or wanting to interact with locals) study some MSA study as well? But how long do they say to a decent level of Arabic? 2200 hours I hear? Is studying any MSA a good idea at all then? Dialect all the way?

But where are the ressources? Okay, let’s say I have a course or two, or even a few, that can take me to intermediate level in Najdi (Saudi) Arabic, and the rest I have to make up with local speakers and reading and listening. Hmmm, I doubt I can get enough grammatical explanations for local speakers to help me reaching a higher level of the dialect. Listening- Is there enough of the particular dialect spoken in listening materials? (do they even produce podcasts or TV shows in SA in dialect?). Is there much reading material in dialect?

These is a complicated matter. You’ve raised some questions worth very serious consideration to the point I’m more on the side of dialect now, but not 100% sure what to do with MSA, nor convinced I can find enough resources for the local dialect anyway. Sarafina, I’m not necessarily adressing you personally here, these are more like questions i’m raising out loud for anyone to comment on (or not) if they so please, otherwise I’ll work my way through to my own conclusions perhaps. But me knowing me, I love (and hate) my own little mental dilemmas, so this could be one that goes on for quite some time keeping me distracted from other things requiring my attention.

I've heard good things about this site and it's quite a valuable resource in having a decent foundation. They offer audio and video material on the Saudi dialect. https://www.talkinarabic.com/

Awesome. I wonder how much Saudi content is on there. This looks really promising! Thanks again Sarafina!

[PeterMollenburg]

C'mon... you saw it coming....

Now after reading through this thread on learning Arabic (2015 on HTLAL), which Xenops had posted somewhere on LLORG: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=0&TPN=1

I'm reconsidering Arabic. I mean, I'll be there, on location. I have felt that, as probably noted, that it's just a little crazy to ignore the local language while there... still Arabic scares me (the immense complications involved that are not present with, say... French!). And I've been living in a French world while in Australia for such a long time now and it's often seemed a little disconnected. I don't know, I'm confused...

This one? https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7244&p=89613

Yeah, that’s the one

I am also contemplating applying to be an ESL teacher in South Korea...But I don't know any Korean. The job opportunities look appealing, but so does the county: the reason I haven't started Korean seriously is because I'm already learning Japanese. If I was given a proper excuse to learn the language, I would somehow fit time for Korean study. Or maybe I don't need an excuse, as I remember Tarvos' quote from the Arabic thread:

Stop contemplating it and start learning it. No language was ever learned sitting around and pondering.

This is just my thinking out loud: if I was to move to another country, I personally would learn as much of the language as I could.

Well, in terms of tarvos’ comment. First up that comment may/may not have been made in relation to specific cirumstances of somone else’s life, I don’t know. I don’t mean to shoot down your encouragement, what I mean is that they don’t necessarily apply to me and my situation.

Secondly, and this is why they don’t apply, I don’t agree with it. I think taking on the learning of a language (and wanting to go well beyond the basics) is a big deal and all things ought to be considered.

French has been a huge part of my life in the last 5 years or so, and getting this far hasn’t been easy. Sacrifices have been made, time for other hobbies has lost out, family life has been impacted. Such a journey exemplifies iguanamon’s comments or warnings, if you will, with regards to new learners taking on more than one language. It’s a huge undertaking to take a language to C1 and beyond. I don’t feel as though I’ve reached my French objective, so taking on a new language right now, is not my ideal scenario.

Thus, just launching into another language isn’t something I take lightly. Don’t get me wrong, there’s no anger here, I’m just offering an opposing view since that’s how I see it, relevant to my situation. Time on a category V language that I never intended on studying up until quite recently means time away from numerous category I languages I have wanted to study. I tread with much trepidation.

For you Xenops, tarvos’ comments might very will fit the bill, and perhaps if they really hit home with you, then perhaps this is why you wanted to share the comments. And I might be inclined to agree with tarvos here if the comments were made in relation to your ESL Korea ideas. Go for it! Such comments in fact would’ve been very fitting for me at a different time in my life.

[PeterMollenburg]

Stop contemplating it and start learning it. No language was ever learned sitting around and pondering.

This is just my thinking out loud: if I was to move to another country, I personally would learn as much of the language as I could.

Pretty much the same thinking. As a permanent ex-pat or immigrant, I'm all about learning the local language.
However, I do see a lot of English speaking ex-pats that do not make the effort or don't pick up the tools for learning the local language - while I feel that they are missing out on something ... well, not my monkeys, not my circus.

Yes, and I agree with your comments. It’s never been an image I’ve wanted to convey of myself as a native English speaker, nor have I ever intended to personify this (stereo?)typical situation/portrayal of the native English speaker.

I guess, that for a long time, I have meticulously planned relocating to a non-English speaking environment. And I’m stubborn with my objectives, so much so that when life throws up a curveball and seemingly has me on a trajectory sending me to some other distant land with a foreign tongue that’s never overly interested me, I resist, to the point that I steadfastly cling to my goals and try to ignore what’s going on arround me (i.e. French all the way, even in Saudi).

It can take me some time to come to terms with what life is choosing for me, as opposed to what I want. I dig my heels in and try to force what I want, not what’s being ‘given’. Well, no reason to let French fall by the wayside, but still, in the end I’ve decided, as any wise person (who enjoys languages or experiencing other cultures) would in such circumstances, that there’s every reason to embrace this opportunity to learn a foreign language on location and draw oneself into the local culture.

MP, if you fear that you will spend too much time falling into the hole of language obsessiveness with the start of Arabic, perhaps the issue isn't Arabic... and acquiring the tools to not have an obsessive attitude towards an objective might help you in the long term...

How could you manage working on Arabic casually and joyfully?

I’m aware the issue is not Arabic. When I learn a language I want to do it well, focus on details and sound like locals. Perhaps the majority of other language learners are this way on the forum too. Nevertheless, I take a looooong time to reach my objectives with learning a language. Arabic, is frought with many challenges non-existent with learning a popular Cat I language, so imagining myself really getting into this language once started, and falling in love with it, I’m likely up for a very long journey. Perhaps that’s okay. My heels were digging in, because I’ve so many other languages I’d like to spend time on too, not to mention hobbies.

I could approach it casually, but I don’t think that will happen. Might be best to focus as much time as healthily possible on it anyway, since we’re highly unlikely to return after this adventure. Still, your comments are fair and worth consideration, definitely. Depending on time constraints while there (i really don’t know exactly how much time I will have available yet, for learning languages), I might have to take the more casual approach anyway.

Thanks for stopping by!