Spanish Group

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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:22 pm

NoManches wrote:Question about FSI: Is it an audio only course or do you have to do a workbook along with it? I'm looking for audio only.


I've only used FSI as an audio resource, but there is a workbook with all the dialogues and exercises written out for you. Some exercises may work fine without the instructions.
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Brun Ugle
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Brun Ugle » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:11 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
NoManches wrote:Question about FSI: Is it an audio only course or do you have to do a workbook along with it? I'm looking for audio only.


I've only used FSI as an audio resource, but there is a workbook with all the dialogues and exercises written out for you. Some exercises may work fine without the instructions.

The Programmatic course has a workbook and in general has more written exercises and oral exercises where you have to look at the book while doing them. I think the Basic course would be easier to use as an audio only course. Once you’re familiar with how the drills work, you shouldn’t have many problems. I might be misremembering, but I think in the last part, maybe the last two parts, the translation drill changed a bit so that you needed to look at the book to do them. In the early sections, they would say the sentence in English and you had to translate it and then they gave the answer in Spanish. In the later sections, you had to read the English yourself as only the Spanish was on the tape. Other than that, it should be OK, I think.
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Jaleel10
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:23 pm

Subjunctive slash what sounds natural question

So I have been pondering this a lot since I heard it on a podcast (one of those times when you listen to or watch something but an odd grammar usage sidetracks you :lol: )

Me gustaría que lo dijeras/digas (I'd like you to say it) (heard this on the podcast)
Podrías pedirle que lo hiciera/haga (Could you ask him to do it?)

I asked some natives and they told me underlined is what sounds most natural. Both main clauses are in the conditional but why is there a difference in the tense of the subjunctive in the second clause? Is there a rule when to use which?
Last edited by Jaleel10 on Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kulaputra
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby kulaputra » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:35 pm

The second sentence doesn't make sense- "Podrías pedirle que lo hicieras." If you wanna say, "Could you ask him to do it?," then it should be "¿Podrías pedirle que lo hiciera/haga?"

An interesting technique I use when trying to ascertain the relative validity of sentences is to search for them in Google, but in quotes, which forces Google to search for verbatim matches.

"Me gustaría que lo dijeras" yields 22,400 hits
"Me gustaría que lo digas" yields just 4 hits
"Podrías pedirle que lo hicieras" and "Podrías pedirle que lo hagas" return 0 hits, as expected.
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Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

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Jaleel10
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:41 pm

kulaputra wrote:The second sentence doesn't make sense- "Podrías pedirle que lo hicieras." If you wanna say, "Could you ask him to do it?," then it should be "¿Podrías pedirle que lo hiciera/haga?"

An interesting technique I use when trying to ascertain the relative validity of sentences is to search for them in Google, but in quotes, which forces Google to search for verbatim matches.

"Me gustaría que lo dijeras" yields 22,400 hits
"Me gustaría que lo digas" yields just 4 hits
"Podrías pedirle que lo hicieras" and "Podrías pedirle que lo hagas" return 0 hits, as expected.
`

Fudge! That was a typo. Sorry :oops: I meant to say hiciera/haga
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Jaleel10
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:43 pm

Ok, so I put that in Google

Hiciera yields 4 results, haga yields 7
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kulaputra
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby kulaputra » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:45 pm

I know that doesn't shed much light on why. Perhaps a native can explain that better.
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Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

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Querneus
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Querneus » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:57 pm

Jaleel10 wrote:Subjunctive slash what sounds natural question

So I have been pondering this a lot since I heard it on a podcast (one of those times when you listen to or watch something but an odd grammar usage sidetracks you :lol: )

Me gustaría que lo dijeras/digas (I'd like you to say it) (heard this on the podcast)
Podrías pedirle que lo hiciera/haga (Could you ask him to do it?)

I asked some natives and they told me underlined is what sounds most natural. Both main clauses are in the conditional but why is there a difference in the tense of the subjunctive in the second clause? Is there a rule when to use which?

First of all, I'd say me gustaría que lo dijeras rather means 'I'd like it if you said it'. To express 'I'd like you to say it' (which means about the same thing as 'I want you to say it') I'd prefer quisiera que lo dijeras.

Me gustaría que and "I'd like it if" are more emotional (in a positive way) than Quisiera que [hicieras algo]/"I'd like you/her/them to [do sth]"/"I want you to [do sth]", which are more neutral in terms of emotion. But this distinction has to do more with your English translations than the Spanish sentences.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to point out that using questions of ability ("Could you...") in requests is largely a thing of English politeness, and most Spanish speakers don't ask such questions. 'Could you ask him to do it?' would normally be por favor pídele que lo haga.

¿Podrías pedirle que lo haga? would usually mean '(If so) Would you be able to ask him to do it?' (Not something you normally ask.)



The phenomenon you point out is very interesting. I'd say this difference has to do with the kind of verb and the way they treat complement clauses.

A complement clause after a verb of emotion in the conditional such as te gustaría, te encantaría, te molestaría, te extrañaría, me extrañaría, te alegrarías de, estarías contento de (I'm quoting them in second person so you can see how they're used) can easily be replaced with an if-condition. In other words, the complement clause contains the situation when you'd feel the emotion in question. I think this is obvious when you look at the English translations.

    Me gustaría que lo dijeras. ~ Me gustaría si lo dijeras.
    'I'd like it if you said it.'
    Me encantaría que vinieras seguido. ~ Me encantaría si vinieras seguido.
    'I'd love it if you came often.'
    Les extrañaría que hiciéramos eso. ~ Les extrañaría si hiciéramos eso.
    'They'd find it weird if we did that.'
    Yo me alegraría de que os tratárais mejor. ~ Yo me alegraría si os tratárais mejor.
    'I'd be happy if you treated each other better.' (or: 'I'd be happy to see you treating each other better.')
    Estaríamos contentos de que lo celebraras. ~ Estaríamos contentos si lo celebraras.
    'We'd be happy if you celebrated it.' (or: 'We'd be happy to see you celebrating it.')

On the other hand, it is impossible to do this with verbs of wishing, because the complement clause does not represent a condition at all, as it represents a requested future action instead. Try it in English, which is similar. You can't turn you could ask him to do it into something with an if-condition.

    De ser tú les pediría a tus niños que se estén tranquilos.
    'If I were you, I'd ask your children to stay quiet.' (estarse tranquilo is an idiom)
    Normalmente insistiríamos en que baile en el evento, de no ser por la hora.
    'We'd normally insist that he dance in the event, if it weren't for the current time (it's too late).'
    ¿Preferirían que se lo diga ella?
    'Would you prefer that she tell him?'



By the way, how would you say the last two examples in British/Australian English? I went full North American there using English present subjunctives ("that he dance", "that she tell him"), and I'd like to know how to express such things in other dialects.
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eido
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby eido » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:39 pm

These are the more complex subjunctive questions I have trouble answering. Before I was relying on the similarities between Spanish and English to understand them, but I realize from @Ser's answer it's more complicated than that. But I'd like to clarify:

So the past subjunctive in Spanish and English don't have a one-to-one correspondence? Neither do the present or any other variants?

I've been writing, for example:
Me gusta que me lo dijeras / I like that you told me it
Me gustaría si me lo dijeras / I would like if you told me it
Si dejaras de ir allí, me alegría mucho / If you stopped going there, I'd be happy
Antes de que él muriera, habría estado muy contento, ¿no crees? / Before he died, he would've been very happy, don't you think?
Quiero que me lo digas / I want you to tell me it
¿Podrías decírmelo? / Could you tell me it?

I'll try to study your example, though now I think I've realized I've been living a lie, thinking I've been understanding things when I haven't.
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kulaputra
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby kulaputra » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:40 pm

Ser wrote:I'd also like to take the opportunity to point out that using questions of ability ("Could you...") in requests is largely a thing of English politeness, and most Spanish speakers don't ask such questions. 'Could you ask him to do it?' would normally be por favor pídele que lo haga.


Funny, I've heard exactly the reverse: that Spanish speakers are much more averse to using the imperative then English speakers, e.g. where we might say "Bring me a paella" to a waiter, Spanish speakers usually prefer "¿Puede traerme una paella por favor?" But perhaps this is regionally dependent?

Ser wrote:
    De ser tú les pediría a tus niños que se estén tranquilos.
    'If I were you, I'd ask your children to stay quiet.' (estarse tranquilo is an idiom)
    Normalmente insistiríamos en que baile en el evento, de no ser por la hora.
    'We'd normally insist that he dance in the event, if it weren't for the current time (it's too late).'
    ¿Preferirían que se lo diga ella?
    'Would you prefer that she tell him?'

By the way, how would you say the last two examples in British/Australian English? I went full North American there using English present subjunctives ("that he dance", "that she tell him"), and I'd like to know how to express such things in other dialects.


A couple of ways. One is to use a modal:

'We'd normally insist that he should dance in the event, if it wasn't for the current time (it's too late).'

'Would you prefer that she should tell him?'

Another is just to use the indicative:

'We'd normally insist that he dances in the event, if it wasn't for the current time (it's too late).'

'Would you prefer she told him?' OR 'Would you prefer she tells him?'

Although this can result in ambiguities or confusion for an American such as myself. For example, like most American English speakers, I make the following distinction:

I insist that he is there ==> I know he is there and I am insisting on that fact.
I insist that he be there ==> I have demanded that he show up
Last edited by kulaputra on Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!


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