trui's SC log

[trui]

So I hope it's fine for me to start another log-- this one will be in English (maybe the occasional Dutch translation. We'll see) and it'll focus on how I'm progressing through the Super Challenge, which really, is in a way a log of how I'm progressing with my Dutch in general, since my main method of study is reading and listening to native material at the moment. But yeah. Let's do this!

Last time I tried the SC, I started a few months before it was done. I was optimistic. I thought I could do it. I signed up for a double challenge IIRC. But no, alas, I had bitten off more than I could chew. This time though, I've only started a couple minutes late. So it'll go far better, right?

The hardest thing I find about the SC is the 'films' part. 200 'books' at 50 pages each is relatively easy for me. Some of the novels I've been reading in Dutch have been 600 pages each (though I haven't read much in total. More on that later) and so they count as 12 books! 12! The films on the other hand amount to 18000 minutes of Dutch. That's roughly 30 minutes per day as of right now. Not much on the surface, but definitely something that needs to be done at a marathon pace, not at a sprint like I tried to do last time. It's especially hard for me as I'm not in the habit of watching TV in English, so it takes a bit of getting used to.

My level

Some of you will have read my rants about dialang And I still stand by a lot of what I've said, but I do think it's still a useful diagnostic tool if you keep the following thing in mind: The placement test tests your passive vocabulary.

This. Is. An important. Point. The placement test determines how strong the 'real' tests are, and it's why I think it got my results hilariously wrong. (C2 in everything, including vocab). In a good test, this shouldn't be the case. I appreciate what they're trying to do here, but either their Dutch test isn't refined enough, or it doesn't account for someone with a relatively weak vocab but who is strong in other areas. Maybe dialang is accurate for people who focus on vocabulary. Maybe it even might underestimate some people's levels. But I do think that, at least for the Dutch test, if you're weak in vocabulary and strong in everything else, it will overestimate your level.

Ironically, if we take the placement test into account as one of my test results, it's pretty accurate I think. It constantly rates me around 400 points (as of a few days ago as well), even when I guess a lot, maybe a bit more, which, considering how they break up the points into 6 categories, I'm guessing it's around the low end of B2. So reineke and others, while I might disagree with you about the specific accuracy of dialang, I do agree that it's a good tool to determine what your weaknesses are. And in this case, dialang is screaming 'vocab!' at me. Maybe one day I'll cheat on the placement test and see how I do with dialang at full strength. I'm curious about some of your opinions as to if this would be worthwhile to try.

I took the https://www.arealme.com/nederlandse-woordenschat-test/en/ test today and got 5470 words. Honestly, that's probably pretty accurate, considering it's passive vocab and considering that English helps with a lot of Dutch words. While it seems like a lot, I can definitely feel the ~15000 word difference between my Dutch and my English and I want it to go away.

As for more official tests, I've still only taken the NT2 B2 listening and reading sample exams as the CNaVT C1 exam isn't multiple choice, so I can't mark it myself.

Progress so far

So I started on the 10th of July and here's a log of what I've done in the first 6 days (now that I checked when I started, I realize it would make more sense to do this log tomorrow, but whatever. It's a Monday and Mondays are good days for logs, haha.)

July 9th (I guess the forum time is different from my timezone)

• Maartens moestuin (24 minutes). A really fun show about a man puttering about in his garden. I got really mad when the Dutch subtitles got rid of lots of what he said, including one time when he said 'beautiful plants'. Not the beautiful plants! The subtitles certainly helped me catch all of what he said though, even though they cut lots out. Without them, I could understand most of it but I've still got a ways to go. Or maybe I just need to warm up my ears. I haven't done lots of listening in months.
• Met het oog op morgen (45 minutes). Not sure if I should count these. Probably technically not, as it's a podcast where people talk about the news and current events so it's definitely in iffy if not forbidden territory. But it's not like I'm going to start a whole other super challenge where audio news is allowed so--whatever.

July 10th.

Klem (45 minutes). This Dutch crime/drama series where this one family with a father who works at the tax agency meets another father who just got out of prison. They have daughters who are the very best of friends and the tax man's father only just found out now who exactly the other father is. I could mostly understand it without subtitles, but it was frustrating still. It reminds me of when I watched Penoza in the last Super Challenge. Hopefully my ears get used to it as they did then.

July 15th.

A bit of a break, yeah. And still no reading. Ah well. The most important thing is that I focus on listening, and I did good on that front since I ended up watching 3 episodes of Klem. I switched between Dutch subtitles and no subtitles. No subtitles is still painful, but I can understand 99% of the subtitles, so it's clear that I need to just push through and get my ear used to it. I like the show for its own sake though, so it sucks when I can't hear everything without them. I might start watching it without subtitles and then rewatch each episode with.

And that's it for now. I'd better stop before any English learners can count this post as a book! This is what happens when I don't write in Dutch where I'm more restricted. As for today, I'm going to watch more episodes of Klem and hopefully start on some reading. Comments are definitely welcome here. I'll likely provide updates at least once a week.

[trui]

Well, I couldn't wait until the end of today to write this, so I'll just include what I did today in my next log.

Week 2

Audio:

17 June
- 2 episodes of Klem (without subtitles)
18 June
- 1 episode of Klem (ditto)

Books:

21 June
- 5 pages of Nederlands als taal van wetenschap en hoger onderwijs

Week 2 total: 135 minutes and 5 pages.
Week 1 total: 249 minutes and 0 (recorded) pages
Total: 384/18000 minutes and 5/10000 pages

Comments

Oof. Maybe I should have waited and included today . It could be worse, but it could certainly be better, especially considering this is week 2 of when I started, not week 2 of the SC. But anyways, even if I started the SC at the start of 2019, I'd still only need to read 30 pages a day and watch 50 minutes a day of TV. The reading doesn't feel like that much (I can certainly see why the original SC was 100 pages per book) but the 'movies'...that will be hard for me, so I'm glad that I got off to a relatively decent start with them. It certainly will be a marathon like I thought.

As to the actual content, my ears did get used to Klem just like they did with Penoza. I knew that they might, but I still had a nagging doubt in the back of my mind. I should be less fearful about going into the unknown and this is known territory by now. I still can't understand all of it, but a lot more without subtitles than I could when I first begun. I'm also finding that I'm able to look up words that I don't know from the audio alone, which is nice, and I usually get the spelling right. Progress? Or could I do this before when I was actively watching things but now I have more confidence? Perhaps a bit of both. I've only got 3 episodes of Klem left so I'll have to find something else after I'm done. Perhaps more of Maartens moestuin.

Nederlands als taal van wetenschap en hoger onderwijs. Fun title to impress people with . It talks about the status of Dutch in science and higher learning. More and more things are being taught in English at Dutch universities and more and more research is published in English. I haven't gotten that far into it, but so far it's really interesting. I've read a couple more pages of it before writing this post. One problem it brings up is that even if English becomes completely accepted as a good 'universal' research language, research should be made available in Dutch for people who might not know English but still might be interested in it, yet IIRC, the article says that that's currently not happening as much as it should be. I actually found this fairly easy to read, probably since I'm used to the academic language that it uses from my English literature studies, or perhaps because they aimed to be clear in their language and succeeded. I looked up all the words I didn't know (in my monolingual dictionary when possible), and I think I'll be taking this approach throughout the SC since it's different from what I usually do. It certainly feels more productive in any case. I also have been reading some news/blog articles in Dutch but haven't been counting them because that'd be somewhat tedious. More is always better anyways.

Some more ramblings about language learning in general

That's pretty much it for the content itself but now onto something more general. The 'more on that later' comment from my previous entry that I forgot to address. I said then that I hadn't read much. The more on that is that this is why I think my vocabulary is still fairly low. I just haven't been reading enough, or watching/listening to things enough, for it to grow to a decent size. I've been learning Dutch for nearly 4 years now, off and on, and in total during that time I've read around... 10 books I think? 7 of which I think were translations. That's simply not enough to grow your vocabulary at a reasonable speed at, especially if you do mostly extensive reading as I was doing. If it was intensive, perhaps I would have learned a lot, but for the most part it wasn't. Even breaking it down into 200 page books, I've only likely read 20, max. That might seem like a decent amount, and it's certainly okay, but it's not enough if extensive reading has become your main method of vocabulary acquisition. In short, I need to read more. I like reading, so it shouldn't be a problem, but I've been having a relative dry spell lately, even in English. Hopefully the SC will turn this around.

On tests/quizzes and stuff

How do you know you're progressing well in your language learning? Quizzes! This is probably why I got annoyed at dialang. One of the places that people say is good at estimating your level and I got B2 on the placement test and C2 on everything else. If I thought that was accurate, it'd be great, but I don't think it is and so, now what? Where do I go to test my level? I've already taken the NT2 sample exams for listening and reading, the only official ones that I can mark myself. So in a sense, I felt cheated. Out of a potentially useful tool to measure my progress. Now I've realized that if I get higher on the placement test, the tests will become harder and so perhaps dialang will be useful for me. Hopefully that goes well but yeah. The above was part of why I was so annoyed at dialang in my posts earlier about it.

Now I don't want to get into a debate about dialang or my precise level again. But this does lead to an interesting potential conversation topic. What do you do when you're C2? That is, what do you do when you've exhausted all tests, all somewhat objective (as objective as is possible anyways) measures of progress? I don't think I'm C2 yet, but still, it's worth thinking about and perhaps something I'll ponder over here later.

Fortunately, I haven't exhausted such tests. I'll be taking some intake tests to determine my level of Dutch when I study at Leiden in the fall and I've decided to set a goal for myself: Get to C1 by the end of my time at Leiden, and, more importantly than that, take the CNaVT EDUP (C1) test to see if I succeeded. There's no C2 test, so if I'm C1 in some areas already and just don't know it, then hopefully I'll pass it with flying colours. I don't want to take it now, since I want to only take it once and hopefully ace it. But I also want to set a time so that I don't put it off forever, so I feel that this plan is reasonable.

My main weakness is vocabulary. I can chat about lots of things with my current vocabulary, and everything if I use a dictionary and plug words I look up into sentence structures that I know the grammar like the back of my hand for, but I hate that I still rely on a dictionary so much. My written Dutch might look impressive, but it's shallow. I wonder if this is how some people who are learning English feel when they're complemented on their writing. I bet that some of them are just like me. Even grammar wise, while I've internalized a lot of what I now consider the basics, there's still stuff that I need to learn, and there's still things that I need to get used to (like how dat is used far more in Dutch than that is in English).

When it comes to vocabulary, I'll be using what I can understand when reading and also http://woordentest.ugent.be/woordentest to measure my progress. The arealme test, although I felt my result was roughly accurate, I took mostly for fun, but I forgot to mention that earlier. Some Dutch natives also took it and they found that it kinda sucked, but whatevs. The woordentest link though I've felt is one of the better ones out there, as long as you don't guess. I got 4% when I did it on the 16th, but I forget what they described it as.

But this post has gone on long enough. Apparently it's around 4 pages long. Oh, one more thing. Here's some links to some of the resources I've been using during this SC and in general. All legal, but not all free, sorry.

Links

Free:

https://taaladvies.net/ (for grammar and vocabulary use)
http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/index.php?n=Grammar.DutchGrammar (I don't use this much anymore but I used it a ton when I started. When I use it now, I use the Dutch version of the site.)
http://taalunieversum.org/publicaties
https://www.npostart.nl/ Lots of region blocking and some paid stuff, but you can still find a lot for free even without a VPN.
https://vandale.nl/opzoeken Free online versions of the pocket dictionaries. Now that I've got the bigger dictionaries, I don't use this but the bigger ones certainly aren't free.
- Various chatroom sites/apps such as Skype, Discord, etc., to talk with my fiance and others.
- Various newspapers such as https://jeugdjournaal.nl/ when I was starting out (it's still useful for when I want some nice news for a change. And I still learn new words here and there. ) and https://nos.nl/
- The NPO radio apps.

Paid:
- Ebooks (I prefer kobo but it doesn't matter)
- Physical books (either bought in the Netherlands or from bol.com)
- codeplus A0-A1 and A1-A2 books/online courses (I did these at university as a part of my Dutch classes, and even though I was already B1 at that point, they were still quite helpful).
- Van Dale Nederlands woordenboek - Pro (the Hedendaags Nederlands dictionary in app form)
- Van Dale Engels woordenboek - Pro (The Groot English to Dutch and Dutch to English dictionaries in one app)

I got both of the above apps on sale for around 50 euros total IIRC so it was quite a good deal. I find the Hedendaags super useful, but the Dutch/English one I find useful as well. The only dictionary out there with more words and just as good quality is the Dikke Van Dale but even Van Dale recommends most people to get the Hedendaags since it contains both more modern words (past 50 years) and also lists of synonyms and related words. For example, when I search for the Dutch word 'plant', I get a list with probably 100+ types of plants among other things, and each one listed is clickable and has its own entry. Of course plant is an extreme example, but it's still quite useful.

The English/Dutch dictionary is probably the biggest and best Dutch/English dictionary out there. It doesn't have those word lists, but it's still quite a useful dictionary. If I had to pay full price, I'd probably only have bought the Hedendaagse for now, given my level. But if you know you need to know Dutch and have the money, then this will save you from having to buy any other Dutch/English dictionary meant for native speakers. I bought a couple before I bought this and I wish I could have just had this from the beginning. The dictionaries are available in several forms, but I just prefer the apps.

Ugh. I just realized how much the above sounds like an advertisement. It's not, and perhaps I should put these links and whatnot in my other log. But anyways, the point of talking about all of this is to answer the question 'How has trui learned Dutch up until now?' If someone sees my level and asks how I got here, well, the above is how, at least a good deal of how, and I rambled so much about those dictionaries because they've been invaluable to me, though native speakers have of course by far been the most valuable in terms of their patience and help. All the dictionaries let me do is bug them less.

To make this into something more general and not just me gushing about vandale, I'll say that I think that a good set of dictionaries is very useful when learning a language, especially when reading a lot like during the SC. If you have the money, don't be afraid to invest in some, especially if you know you'll be in it for the long haul. Buy better dictionaries then you think you need. It's worth it, trust me. If you can't afford paid dictionaries then don't despair. Even with super amazing dictionaries, you need to make sure the words you look up are actually used and furthermore, are used in the way you think they are. And that requires asking native speakers about them or finding them 'in the wild' so to speak (in books, news, tv, people talking, etc). With free dictionaries, you'll just have to do that more frequently and occasionally rely on natives as your dictionaries for some less common words.

But time to get back to reading!

[tarvos]

Misschien gewoon de Luizenmoeder kijken? Of heb je die al gezien?

[trui]

Misschien gewoon de Luizenmoeder kijken? Of heb je die al gezien?

Haha, ik was er eerder mee begonnen, maar ik stopte. Ik vond het wel leuk, dus goed idee. Dat brengt me tot een ander punt dat ik was vergeten. Misschien weet ik niet precies hoe ver ik met Nederlands ben omdat ik altijd probeer om dingen te doen die ik leuk vind, en ik lees en kijk, daarom, dingen die al mijn vermogen eisen, zoals heel lange fantasieboeken enz. Dit laat me snel leren, maar misschien heb ik een beetje perspectief nodig. Ik denk dat ik sommige boeken en series die ik eerder moeilijk vond weer ga lezen/kijken deze week zodat ik dat perspectief kan krijgen. O, en nu ik naar mijn schrift kijk, kan ik ook zien dat ik meer oefening ermee nodig heb. Het is niet erg slecht, maar in vergelijking met hoe ik soms kan schrijven is het vgm wel slecht. En ja, ik gebruikte een woordenboek een paar keren toen ik dit schreef.

Translation:

Haha. I had started with it before, but I stopped. I did find it fun, so good idea. That brings me to another point that I had forgotten. Maybe I don't know exactly how far I am with my Dutch because I always try to do things that I find fun, and I thus read and watch things that require all of my capabilities, such as very long fantasy books and so forth. This lets me learn fast, but maybe I need a bit of perspective. I think I'll read/watch some books and series this week that I found difficult earlier so that I can gain that perspective. Oh, and now that I look at my writing, I can see that I also need some practice with it. It's not awfully bad, but in comparison to how I sometimes can write, it's bad, according to me. And yes, I used a dictionary a couple of times when I wrote this.

[trui]

(Translation at the bottom)

Nieuwe woordenboeken!

Ik heb net toegang tot Van Dale Totaal door Leiden gekregen en wat is de dikke van dale mooi! Geen leuke woordenlijsten maar wel heel veel betekenissen die ook lang zijn. Ik ga het nu zeker kopen nadat ik afgestudeerd ben. Ik wil een vertaalster zijn dus ik heb een excuus.

Maar nu weet ik niet meer welke woordenboek ik zou aanraden, de hedendaagse of de dikke van dale, als je maar een kon kopen.

Door van dale totaal heb ik ook toegang tot de Nederlands- Duits, Frans, Spaans, Portugees, Italiaans, Zweeds, en Engels woordenboeken en ook de hedendaagse. Die zijn niet precies gratis, want ik betaal collegegeld, maar ik was vergeten dat je toegang tot ze kreeg.

Ik ga de app kopen over een jaar want het online abonnement is te duur. Maar de online versie heeft zijn voordelen, dus ik moet een studieplan ermee maken. Hoe kan ik deze woordenboeken best gebruiken? Zal ik Frans, Duits, enz. leren? Nee, helaas niet.

Maar ik zal misschien wel doorgaan met mijn plan om een viervoud uitdaging te maken, tenminste met de leesdeel van de SC. Ik wil deze kans niet verspillen. Misschien kan ik zelfs C2 over een jaar bereiken.

Heb ik mijn nieuwe woordenboek voor deze post gebruikt? Absoluut. Schrijf ik dus heel langzaam en netjes? Nee, hoor. Ik schrijf nogal snel. Maak ik nog foutjes? Jazeker. Ik zal jullie trouwens vertellen wanner ik geen woordenboeken voor een post gebruik. Maar ik vind het vrij leuk om zoveel te kunnen zeggen, zelfs als het met een handicaap moet.

Nu ik dit abonnement heb, heb ik geen excuus om in het Engels te schrijven. Maar ik zal altijd een vertaling voor elke post geven, dus geen zorgen.

Over de SC

Gisteren heb ik een paar pagina's van Het Achterhuis gelezen. Anne Frank gebruikt heel veel bijvoegelijke naamwoorden! Elke keer dat ik probeer om het te lezen, voel ik altijd heel verdrietig. Maar ik ben gisteren gelukt om het verder dan ooit te lezen zonder willen te stoppen. En met dat bedoel ik dat ik tot pagina 15 kwam. En deze keer stopte ik niet omdat ik een triest deel las maar gewoon omdat ik wilde stoppen. Nu zijn sommige van de vroegere moeilijke en trieste delen voorbij dus ik denk dat het gaat lukken met het lezen ervan. Ik wil het lezen, ik moet het lezen, niet voor mijn Nederlands maar gewoon omdat het de eerste keer is dat ik het gelezen heb. En het is een boek dat iedereen moet lezen. Vooral nu. Misschien las ik het eens in highschool maar ik ben zijn inhoud helemaal vergeten. Dus het is hoog tijd om het weer of voor de keerste keer te lezen, in zijn oorspronkelijke taal.

Ik ben van plan vandaag om mijn woordenboeken verder te lezen een ook meer Het Achterhuis. Maar dat is alles voor deze post.

Translation

Note: Sometimes I changed minor things if they sounded awkward in English.

New dictionaries!

I've just gained access to Van Dale Totaal through Leiden and it's so amazing! No nice word lists but sooo many definitions that are also super long. I'm definitely going to buy it after I've graduated. I want to be a translator so I have an excuse.

But now I don't know which dictionary I'd recommmend anymore, the hedendaagse or the dikke van dale, if you could only buy one.

Through the van dale totaal I've also got access to the Dutch-German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Swedish and English dictionaries and also the hedendaagse. They're not exactly free, as I still pay tuition but I had forgotten that you got access to them

I'm going to buy the app in a year as the subscription is too expensive. But the online version has its advantages, so I need to make a study plan for it. How can I use this dictionary best? Shall I learn French, German, and so forth? No, alas not.

But I'll maybe go through with my plan to do a quadruple challenge, at least with the reading part of the SC. I don't want to waste this opportunity. Maybe I can even reach C2 within a year.

Have I used my new dictionary for this post? Certainly. Do I therefore write super slowly and neatly? Nope. I write fairly fast. Do I still make mistakes? Definitely. I will tell you guys by the way when I don't use a dictionary for a post. But I find it very fun to be able to say so much, even if I need a handicap.

Now that I have this subscription, I have no excuse to write in English. But I'll always provide a translation for each post, so don't worry.

About the SC

I read a few pages of Het Achterhuis yesterday. Anne Frank uses a lot of adjectives! Every time that I try to read it, I always feel very sad. But I was successful to read it farther than ever yesterday without wanting to stop. And by that I mean that I got to page 15. And this time I stopped not because I read a sad part, but simply because I wanted to stop. Now that some of the earlier difficult and sad parts are over so I think I'll be successful in reading it. I want to read it. I must read it, not for my Dutch but simply because it's the first time that I've read it. And it's a book that everyone needs to read. Especially now. Maybe I read it once in highschool, but I've forgotten its contents. So it's high time to read it again, or for the first time, in its original language.

I'm planning to read my dictionaries more today and also more of Het Achterhuis. But that's all for this post.

[trui]

Week 3

Weer niet echt veel gedaan deze week maar ik heb Klem uitgekeken! Drie afleveringen, dus 135 minuten, net zoals vorige week. Ik heb ook 14 pagina's van Het achterhuis, twee pagina's van die publicatie, en circa 20 pagina's van het derde boek van De Verborgen Universiteit trilogie gelezen. Ja, ik lees dat nog steeds. Ik las ook een paar hoofdstukken van Jip en Janneke (een beroemde serie kinderboeken) en af en toe blogs, nieuws, enz. Ik heb ze niet geteld, want ik denk dat ik de SC nog kan doen zonder ze. En meestal omdat ik het best vervelend vind om blogberichtjes te moeten tellen.

Door die blogs heb ik trouwens wat gaten in Mijn Nederlands gevonden. Ik besef dat ik niet genoeg voorzetsels gebruik, vooral die combinaties zoals hiermee, daarvan, enz. Ook niet genoeg bepaalde lidwoorden, of in die combinaties of alleen. Als ik ze vaker gebruik, zal mijn Nederlands vloeiender worden, denk ik. Misschien tijd voor meer studeren en oefenen, om hieraan te wennen. Maar ik voel me nu een beetje moe dus ik ga dit hier eindigen.

Week 3 totaal: 135 minuten en 36 pagina's.
SC totaal: 519 minuten en 41 pagina's, of, in SC termen, 5,7 films en 0,82 boeken.

Translation

Week 3

I didn't get much done again this week but I finished Klem! Three episodes, so 135 minutes, just like last week. I also read 14 pages of Het Achterhuis, two pages of that publication, and around 20 pages of the third book of De Verborgen Universiteit trilogy. Yes, I'm still reading that. I also read a couple chapters of Jip en Janneke (a popular childrens book series) and occassionally blogs, news, and so on. I haven't counted them as I think that I can still do the SC without them. And mostly because I find it quite annoying to have to count blog posts.

Through the blogs I've found some holes in my Dutch, by the way. I realize that I don't use enough prepositions, especially those combinations such as with this, of that, etc. Also not enough definite articles, whether in those combinations or alone. If I use them more often, my Dutch will become more fluent I think. Maybe time for more studying and practice, to get used to this. But I feel a bit tired now so I'm going to end this here.

Week 3 total: 135 minutes and 36 pages
SC total: 519 minutes and 41 pages, or, in SC terms, 5.7 films and 0.82 books.

[trui]

Kleine update.

Ik heb besloten dat ik een lijst 100 woorden wil maken die ik deze week zal proberen om te leren. Ik ga tegelijk de lijst bouwen en de woorden leren, dus hij is nog niet klaar, maar ik post hem (met voorbeeldzinnen) zodra het gelukt is.

Ik ben ook op zoek naar een nieuwe televisieshow. Helaas staat De Luizenmoeder nu op NPO plus en ik heb daar geen geld voor.

Translation:

Small update.

I've decided that I want to make a list of 100 words that I'll try and learn this week. I'm going to build the list and learn it at the same time, so it's still not finished, but I'll post it (with example sentences) once I'm successful.

I'm also looking for a new television show. De Luizenmoeder is sadly now on NPO plus and I have no money for that.