Anki/SRS unbelievers

General discussion about learning languages
galaxyrocker
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby galaxyrocker » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:04 pm

mouse wrote:I think it's probably more that languages are different, as has been said. Learning a new script requires drills — unless you want to progress at a snail's pace — which are more efficient with SRS. Whether you do it with SRS or not, repetition has to be part of your language learning process, so why not (partially) automate it? Personally I think people use the rather dubious concept of 'learning styles' to justify giving up.

Apart from that, as Saim says, SRS is useful for general recognition drills, especially for sentences. I can understand why some might find this boring, though.


You can easily still advance faster than "a snail's" pace without SRS. Yes, repetition has to be part of your learning process, but it can come through natural sources that people might find much more interesting. That's how I learn, and I achieved a B2 level in a language with very little in the way of resources in under 4 years. Now, I was lucky enough to get to study there some, but most my learning came outside of the country and on my own, by reading, listening, etc. Not with SRS.

It's also not that 'languages are different'. People were learning languages well before SRS was a thing, and will continue to do so when the Next Big Thing arrives. It's all down to what the learner finds useful when it comes to learning; it has nothing to do with the language, though, yes, there are some that SRS might make it easier for, if you can stomach doing flashcards. I really don't like the way you seem to be categorically dismissing people who don't like SRS.


Uncle Roger wrote:


What if all the fancy stuff, the comics, the amazing rock tunes, the David Lynch or Francis Ford Coppola movies, the endless amounts of YouTube videos about anything remotely interesting, the quality comedy series did not exist in English, like they don't exist (or at least not as much and to everyone's taste) in many other languages that hardly have any interesting content but you might still have to learn at some point in your life for whatever reason?


Welcome to Irish. I've done it without SRS. Yes, I am interested in folk tales and stuff like that, but that's still not the majority of the stuff in the language. If you're truly committed to a language, you'll listen and read whatever you have to to learn it. And all of this can still be done with SRS. In fact, I'd wager that I would learn any language better without SRS.
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reineke
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby reineke » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:16 pm

Uncle Roger wrote:Lunatics.
Each and every one of them.
:D

Wanting to learn a language without SRS is like wanting to become Schwarzy without pumping iron at the gym. It's possible, but it's inefficient.

PART of the challenge is very clear. (At least) 3000 headwords for basic fluency (solid B2?) for a European language. Ten words a day for 6 days a week for 50 weeks in one year.
How are you going to tackle that astounding amount of learning/memorisation in that time period and assuming a normally busy life (i.e. fulltime studies or work, daily and weekly chores, friends, a partner, staying fit) but with SRS?


Uncle Roger wrote:
Try with a language spoken by 5 million people or less, with no significant footprint in cinema, recent literature, modern music and the like and without living in the country.


You mean the country that gave us Henrik Ibsen, Knut Hamsun and Jo Nesbø?

Weights and resistance training are pretty much obligatory in body building.

If you're trying to build a successful analogy, I believe that high-brow fiction is more comparable to the iron bench press than the act of memorizing words.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby Sayonaroo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:36 pm

I hated anki until I switched tocloze deletion format and changed the ease interval (I increased it a lot because I just don't need to see the word that soon), steps (Steps is the biggest waste of time imo. I make it one step of 2400 or bigger), max interval, and some other settings which make it possible for me send cards out far in a few reviews. The discussion is proceeding with a generalization of anki-ing and srs-sing but anki is very customizable and doing cloze deletion cards is so much more fun and easier than sentence cards in my experience. There are many possible formats for srs-ing. I used to do sentence on the front and the definition of the word in the back which was painful and it didn't work that well ( It was boring so I wouldn't read the sentence even if that was my intention). here are examples of the cloze deletion format that I like using. I do find that I learn more anking and reading vs. just reading from reading 150+ books in Japanese. I've never compared anking and reading vs. reading and looking stuff up because if I go out of my way to look it up and it's worth anki-ing i'm going to add it to my anki deck.. Actually I have been doing that lately because I use the kindle pop-up dictionary for Japanese and it satisfies my curiosity in that moment and I have zero desire to add look-ups to anki.

I can't get myself to stop anki-ing because there are so many tools that make anki-ing more convenient and efficient like wordquery anki plugin (covers any language with the compatible dictionary format), hanseido plugin (korean), sanseido plugin (japanese), rikai-sama (it saves look-ups in a specific format plus you can use EPWING dictionaries), excel (i like cloze deletion so excel makes making the cards more efficient so I use it with rikai-sama or readlang.com), readlang.com (for korean), etc!

Maybe mass-reading on a kindle is more effective/efficient than srs-ing if you're intermediate/advanced?? (provided your language is supported on kindle and you have interesting content to read on the kindle)
Last edited by Sayonaroo on Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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mouse
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby mouse » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:49 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:You can easily still advance faster than "a snail's" pace without SRS. Yes, repetition has to be part of your learning process, but it can come through natural sources that people might find much more interesting. That's how I learn, and I achieved a B2 level in a language with very little in the way of resources in under 4 years. Now, I was lucky enough to get to study there some, but most my learning came outside of the country and on my own, by reading, listening, etc. Not with SRS.

It's also not that 'languages are different'. People were learning languages well before SRS was a thing, and will continue to do so when the Next Big Thing arrives. It's all down to what the learner finds useful when it comes to learning; it has nothing to do with the language, though, yes, there are some that SRS might make it easier for, if you can stomach doing flashcards. I really don't like the way you seem to be categorically dismissing people who don't like SRS.


I don't feel like I am "categorically dismissing people who don't like SRS". I never said you had to use SRS, I said repetition and drills were necessary (which you apparently agree with) and SRS can help with that. My point about languages being different is that some are written in very different scripts, and some might be linguistically unrelated to languages one already knows. As a native English speaker who learned Irish, these of course weren't issues for you, but it doesn't mean they aren't issues for others.

Your post reminds me why I usually avoid these debates, as people tend to be overly defensive about their study methods.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby Xmmm » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:32 pm

mouse wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote: ... and some might be linguistically unrelated to languages one already knows. As a native English speaker who learned Irish, these of course weren't issues for you, but it doesn't mean they aren't issues for others.


Because English and Irish are so closely related ...

I remember getting my Buntús Cainte books and thinking "what the hell, I thought this was a European language."
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby aokoye » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:58 am

reineke wrote:Graceffo: "To learn Mandarin, I attended six months of private lessons, 15-20 hours per week, at Taipei Language Institute, Kaohsiung, Taiwan. Because I wanted to learn as much vocabulary, grammar and usage as quickly as possible, I didn’t learn any Chinese characters or pinyin. My teacher and I practiced only listening and speaking. I read texts written in Taiwanese phonetic script (Bopomofo / Zhùyīn fúhào). And I didn’t do any writing at all.

Do you have a link for this quote? I ask because I essentially want to do that with Japanese (and to an extent Mandarin) but the other way around. I have no major desire to learn to verbally speak the language but am interested in learning to read. I mean there are likely plenty of ways I could figure that out myself, but reading whatever source you took that quote from would be interesting.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby ロータス » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:05 am

aokoye wrote:Do you have a link for this quote? I ask because I essentially want to do that with Japanese (and to an extent Mandarin) but the other way around. I have no major desire to learn to verbally speak the language but am interested in learning to read. I mean there are likely plenty of ways I could figure that out myself, but reading whatever source you took that quote from would be interesting.


My log is me doing this (for Mandarin). All you have to do is read with a dictionary. There are at least a few people I have seen do this with Japanese. If you want, I can send you my past links I have saved.
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reineke
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby reineke » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:22 am

aokoye wrote:
reineke wrote:Graceffo: "To learn Mandarin, I attended six months of private lessons, 15-20 hours per week, at Taipei Language Institute, Kaohsiung, Taiwan. Because I wanted to learn as much vocabulary, grammar and usage as quickly as possible, I didn’t learn any Chinese characters or pinyin. My teacher and I practiced only listening and speaking. I read texts written in Taiwanese phonetic script (Bopomofo / Zhùyīn fúhào). And I didn’t do any writing at all.

Do you have a link for this quote? I ask because I essentially want to do that with Japanese (and to an extent Mandarin) but the other way around. I have no major desire to learn to verbally speak the language but am interested in learning to read. I mean there are likely plenty of ways I could figure that out myself, but reading whatever source you took that quote from would be interesting.


https://brooklynmonk.wordpress.com/2011 ... yglot/amp/
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby aokoye » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:08 am

ロータス wrote:
aokoye wrote:Do you have a link for this quote? I ask because I essentially want to do that with Japanese (and to an extent Mandarin) but the other way around. I have no major desire to learn to verbally speak the language but am interested in learning to read. I mean there are likely plenty of ways I could figure that out myself, but reading whatever source you took that quote from would be interesting.


My log is me doing this (for Mandarin). All you have to do is read with a dictionary. There are at least a few people I have seen do this with Japanese. If you want, I can send you my past links I have saved.

That would be great! It's funny I was actually just skimming through some of your log the other day and noticed that you seemed to be doing that.
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Re: Anki/SRS unbelievers

Postby kulaputra » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:41 am

galaxyrocker wrote:People were learning languages well before SRS was a thing, and will continue to do so when the Next Big Thing arrives.


The fact that SRS was not discovered or consciously applied in a scientific manner does not mean it did not exist. It is a basic fact of our memory that hasn't changed in 200,000+ years. Possibly millions of years given that it probably works for animals too. The invention of rockets did not bring gravity into existence. The invention of Anki et. al. did not bring into existence the way human memory actually works. Everyone who has ever lived has in fact been subject to SRS, knowingly or not.
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