Dutch Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:57 pm

Elsa Maria wrote:I'd also be happy to see people's stats and hear about their Dutch study routines. Most people post that kind of stuff in their logs, but (speaking only for myself, of course) I'd be fine with seeing it here. I'll perhaps worry that more advanced learners will tire of my A-level Dutch and my seemingly endless tolerance for children's books and nintje :)

I think because there is such a small group of Dutch learners here, it is probably better to have one Dutch study "log", since it is a Dutch Study Group. I don't think it is all that useful to see peoples stats here. Or that they have done Chapter 5 in their Dutch course, or that they read the news in "De Telegraaf" and "De Volkskrant". Better to discuss WHAT they learned or read. Better to discuss here things that will help other Dutch learners or 'improvers'. In other words, our Group can study together.
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:59 pm

If you read the article in nu.nl about ice melting in Greenland faster than expected, you probably noticed that the Dutch have a slightly different interpretation about what the North Pole means. They often use it to mean the polar region. Note that the article said "Eind 2018 verscheen er al een rapport waarin wetenschappers constateerden dat door het snel smeltende gletsjerijs op de Noordpool 14.000 ton water per seconde in zee belandt." Well, there are no glaciers at the North Pole. They probably really mean "het poolgebied" or "het Arctisch gebied". But anyway, that is a lot of water every second!

Article about glaciers melting

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/5697506/weten ... lk_wrapper

Note that the Dutch have two words for sea level; de zeespiegel and het zeeniveau. (sea mirror and sea level).

Another Dutch expression: "Dat stuit mij tegen de borst". (That hits me in the wrong way.)

Here is a very long list of Dutch proverbs and expressions with the meanings in Dutch. One of my favorites is "Alle hens aan dek!". It doesn't mean "All hens on deck!".

Nederlandstalige spreekwoorden
https://nl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nederland ... eekwoorden

Another useful expression from reading 'de reacties':

"De cijfers liegen niet. Meten is weten." Numbers don't lie. Measuring is knowing.
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:26 am

I've continued reading the over-500 comments to the article in nu.nl about climate change:

Ook ijs op Groenland smelt veel sneller dan verwacht
Also ice on Greenland melts faster than expected

I made notes as I read through the comments of words, expressions and short sentences that might be useful for general discussion groups or ordinary conversation. Here are some more examples:

Dat is de oncomfortabele waarheid. That is an uncomfortable truth.
Je bent verkeerd geïnformeerd. You are badly informed.
Dat klopt helemaal. That's right.

Ik noem dat puur natte vingerwerk. I call that completely inaccurate. This expression is like wetting your finger and holding it up to see approximately which way the wind is blowing.

https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/nattevingerwerk/

Voor zover we kunnen zien. As far as we can see.

Het is dwaas op zijn best. That's completely foolish.

Dus wat je hier vertelt is gewoon dikke onzin. What you are saying is just nonsense.

en dus uiteindelijk de mensheid zichzelf diep in de vingers snijdt. - and thus in the end humanity unintentionally harms itself.

Wat kan je hier over zeggen dat nog niet gezegd is. What can you say that hasn't already been said.

De vraag is niet of er iets moet gebeuren, maar hoe. The question is not if something must happen, but how.

Ik snap wat je zegt. I understand what you say.

Geloof wat je wil. Believe what you will.

Wat is uw punt? What's your point?

The comments to news articles contain lots of abbreviations. Here are some:

m.a.w.: met andere woorden - in other words

i.p.v: in plaats van - instead of

idd: inderdaad - indeed

aub alstublieft - please

There are lots of sites on the Internet that list and explain Dutch acronyms. Here are three:

https://www.expatica.com/nl/about/culture-history/keeping-it-short-dutch-abbreviations-explained-100677/

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Dutch_abbreviations

https://www.abbreviations.com/acronyms/DUTCH/6

hoog en droog.
high and dry.

U schetst perfect het probleem.
You describe the problem perfectly

ik ben het met je eens.
I agree with you.

Heb je uberhaupt wel gelezen wat ik heb geschreven?
Have you ever read what I have written?

The Dutch borrow überhaupt from the Germans. It is written with the umlaut but in casual comments, it seems to be usually just a 'u'.

Nee hoor, dit doen wij echt zelf.
No, we really do this ourselves.

Nee, dat heeft er niets mee te maken.
No, that has nothing to do with it.

Nee. Dat heeft er weinig mee te maken.
No. That has little to do with it.

Verwacht je hier een serieuze reactie op? Mag toch hopen van niet.
Are you expecting a serious reaction here? Maybe hoping for nothing.

Plaats svp een link naar dat bericht.
Please place a link to that message. The svp is borrowed from the French.

Wat bedoel je?
What do you mean?

Heel erg triest nieuws.
Very sad news.

Niet andersom.
Not the other way around.

Lijkt mij duidelijk.
Seems clear to me.

Natuurlijk onzin dat alles.
Naturally that is all nonsense.

Als je het zo bekijkt is het nu ook koek en ei.
If you look at it like that, it is all fine.

Je snapt er geen bal van.
You don't know what you're talking about.

Maar met zo'n antwoord zakt me de moed in de schoenen.
But with such an answer, my spirit drops.

Jouw reactie toont een schokkend onbegrip van de materie.
Your comment shows a shocking misunderstanding of the material.

Ik hoop dat u het mij niet kwalijk neemt.
I hope you will forgive me for it.

Wie kan mij uitleggen hoe dit zit?
Who can explain this to me?

En waarom is dat dan?
And why is that?

Heb je daar een bron bij?
Do you have a reference for that?

Er is niets mis.
There is nothing wrong.

Here are some 'reactie' excerpts from a different article:

zeer sneu.
erg verdrietig
erg triest
erg treurig
erg droevig
(all: very sad)

"zoeken naar een speld in een hooiberg"
"zoeken naar een naald in een hooiberg"

Looking for a needle in a haystack. The Dutch usually say 'speld' (pin) but sometimes say 'naald' (needle).

https://onzetaal.nl/taaladvies/zoeken-naar-een-speld-in-een-hooiberg/

Wat een onzin.
What nonsense.

Tja, het is ingewikkeld.
Well, it is complicated.

gebeurd overal.
happens everywhere

Precies mijn gedachte.
Precisely my thought.

That's all for now.
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:57 pm

Here are some more excerpts from comments to articles in https://www.nu.nl/

Many of these expressions are easy to figure out when reading them. However, many are very difficult to come up with if you are chatting in a conversation. The command of these little expressions play a big role in separating B2 speakers from C1, C2 and native-sounding speakers. Probably the only real ways to learn to speak like that is to rote learn (memorise) a lot of the most common expressions, and expose yourself to massive amounts of listening and chatting.

Most of the expressions below are very general and not tied to any specific topic. As such, they should be generally useful. They appeared in the 'reacties' to a number of nu.nl articles today.

Werkelijk te triest voor woorden.
Really to sad for words.

Ben het niet helemaal met je eens.
I don't completely agree with you.

Dat heeft er niets mee te maken.
That has nothing to do with it.

Als dat zo is.
If that is true.

Die bestaan nog steeds.
These still exist.

Wat een suggestieve opmerking.
What a suggestive remark.

Een verassing is het niet voor mij.
That's not a surprise to me.

Wat moet ik zeggen.
What should I say.

Het is wel enigszins relevant.
It is in some sense relevant.

Absoluut niet mee eens.
I absolutely disagree.

En daar zit nu net de grap.
And that's the joke.

Wat heeft dat met deze situatie te maken?
What has that to do with this situation.

Dat is volledig aan u.
That's completely up to you.

Ik vind het niet erg sjiek.
I don't think that it is very chic.

Dat stond ook breeduit in de krant.
That was widely reported in the newspapers.

Dus kijk eens naar de feiten.
Just look at the facts.

Alles goed en wel.
All well and good.

Wat een dom argument.
What a dumb argument.

De pot verwijt de ketel.
The pot calls the kettle black.
De pot verwijt de ketel dat die zwart ziet.

Mooi gebaar!
Nice gesture!

Een aantal reacties verbazen mij zeer.
A number of comments surprise me.

De essentie van het huidige probleem is dat ...
The essence of the current problem is that ...

Het probleem met dit soort acties is dat ...
The problem with this sort of action is that ...

Wordt wakker!
Wake up!

Ben je niet voor, dan ben je tegen.
If you're not for, they you're against.

Zorgwekkend!
Worrying!

Ik weet het goed gemaakt.
I know it well.

De kern van je stukje is ..
The core of your comment is ...

Stellen dat ...
Suppose that ...

Kinderen en dronkaards zeggen de waarheid.
Children and drunks speak the truth.
Kinderen en dronkaards spreken de waarheid

Ik vind het best bijzonder dat ...
I find it very strange that ...

Ja hoor, daar hebben we er weer één.
Yes, we agree.

Wel heel erg overdreven.
Very exaggerated.

Geweldig!
Terrific!

Zo'n voorspelbare reactie.
What a predictable reaction.

Wat een idiote reactie.
What a stupid comment.

Je vergelijkt appels met peren.
You are comparing apples to pears. (or oranges)

Exact!
Exactly!

Nee, zo werkt het dus niet.
No, it doesn't work like that.

Het is überhaupt een illusie om te denken dat ...
It is moreover an illusion to think that ...

Dank voor de correctie.
Thanks for the correction.

Het is geen vraag of ...
It is not a question of ...

Was het maar zo.
If only it were true.

Zuurpruim!
Sourpuss!

U bent helaas erg naïef.
You are unfortunately very naive.

Hier zie je het probleem.
Here's the problem.

Serieus?
Are you serious?

Te gek voor woorden deze waanzin.
This madness is too crazy for words.
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:05 pm

I appear to be hijacking this "Dutch Study Group" with all these general expressions from Dutch newspaper articles. However, I think these are useful, and it would be difficult to find other sources of lists of the types of expressions that are used in everyday conversation. If people know of other good sources, I'd like to know.

However, this thread can't be only about these 'reacties' to news articles. What is everyone else studying? Reading? Listening to? Can you make a few notes of what you are learning as you study or read, etc? Or am I missing the purpose of the Dutch Study Group? Threads that have little or no participation quickly dry up.
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:58 pm

Some more conversational expressions from the Comments section of nu.nl

Dat valt best wel mee.
That wasn't so bad.

Was u erbij?
Were you there?

Dat dacht ik ook.
I thought that also.

De stelling is zeker niet waar.
That statement is surely not true.

Niet te vergeten.
Don't forget.

Er kan nog veel gebeuren.
A lot can still happen.

Het word hoog tijd dat ...
It's high time that ...

Nou ja het wordt steeds lastige.
Well yes, it's becoming more difficult.

Ik hoor iedereen steeds zeggen dat ..
I hear everyone saying that ...

Niet eens met de stelling.
I don't agree with the statement.

Tuurlijk nog niks aan de hand voor jullie.
Naturally nothing wrong for you.

Klopt wij zijn er zeker nog niet!
We're certainly not there yet!

Eerlijk gezegt.
To be honest.

Ja idd.
Yes indeed. (inderdaad)

Daar heb je ook gelijk in.
You're right.

Jammer dat ...
Too bad that ...

Ben bang van wel.
I'm afraid it is.

Dit maakt mijn dag.
This makes my day.

Geld maakt niet gelukkig!
Money doesn't buy happiness.

Dat doet er inderdaad niet toe.
That doesn't matter.

Klopt.
Correct.

Dat klopt.
That's correct.

Ik denk dat zijn dagen geteld zijn.
I think that his days are numbered.

Heeft alles te maken met ...
It's all about ...

De enige mogelijkheid lijkt mij is ...
I think the only possibility is ...

Het ligt allemaal wat ingewikkelder.
It's a bit more complicated.

Lekker makkelijk.
Nice and easy.

Mee eens.
Agree.

Zit wel even een verschil in.
There's a difference.

Ik vind het vreemd dat ...
I find it strange that ...

Als ik u goed begrijp.
If I understand you well.

Het is maar hoe je het bekijkt.
It depends on how you look at it.

Dan komen er tegenreacties.
Then come counter opinions.

Some excerpts from Comments to:

https://www.scientias.nl

Okeé!, kan ik me wel in vinden.
OK! I can agree with that.

Je ziet deze niet dagelijks langs komen.
You don't see these every day.

Dat heb ik niet beweerd.
I didn't claim that.

Dat was mijn vraag
That was my question.

Mijn excuses voor het verkeerd begrijpen.
My excuses for the misunderstanding.

Laat het dan even weten. (laat het dan ff weten)
Just let us know.
What does it mean when a Dutch person types 'ff'?

Dan maakt dat alles geen ene moer meer uit.
Then all that doesn't matter a bit anymore.
(Not sure about this translation. Can anyone help?)

Daar geef ik geen ene moer om.
I don't care about any of that.
(Source with many examples: context.reverso.net)

Ik haalde dus een oude koe uit de sloot.
I brought up some old information.
(Source with many examples: context.reverso.net)

Maar het lukt me blijkbaar niet.
But apparently I did not succeed.

Bedankt. Duidelijke uitleg.
Thanks. Clear explanation.
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Elsa Maria » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:27 pm

tommus, I'm still here and I appreciate your posts :)

I encountered my first ah-ha spelling reform moment yesterday. While I was in the NL, I learned that the word for gift is cadeau. I was reading a Jip and Janneke story yesterday (printing date 1975), and encountered the word kado. After some research, I now know that kado is no longer considered correct spelling for cadeau.

When I was shopping in the NL, the clerk would often ask if my purchase was a geschenk, but cadeau was the word I saw printed on signs.

This weekend, I made my first attempt at reading some of the books that I brought back from my trip:

Jip en Janneke (vierde boek): classic Dutch stories for young children
Het GROTE zelfleesboek : A book for Dutch children who are just beginning to read
Het Woorden boek van Vos en Haas This one is sort of a dictionary, sort of a reader.
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:16 pm

Some more useful conversational expressions from readers' comments. These are from this article:

Waarom de voorgestelde superversneller van CERN een slecht idee is

Dát zou pas wat wezen.
That would be something.
(Note the acute accent on the 'a' in Dát. The Dutch often use acute accents for emphasis. The most common example is één which changes the meaning of een from 'one' or 'an' or 'a' to specifically and very emphatically 'one'.)

Jouw impressie is zeker correct.
Your impression is surely correct.

Ter aanvulling.
In addition.

Dat gebeurt al hoor.
That's already happening.

Het is heel jammer dat ..
It's too bad that ...

Wat veel zorgelijker is dat ...
What is a lot more worrisome is that ...

Dat is maar wel nuttig om te weten.
That is well worth knowing.

In ieder geval.
In any case.

Ik kijk belangstellend uit naar uw artikel.
I look forward to your article with interest.

Het lijkt me dat ...
It seems to me that ...

Klik hier om in te loggen.
Click here to log in.

Verplichte velden zijn gemarkeerd met een *.
Required fields are marked with an *.

The next group of expressions is from this nu.nl article:

Geboorte van zwart gat voor het eerst waargenomen

Wij zien het nu gebeuren.
We see it happening now.

Zolang het niet bewezen is ...
As long as it isn't proven ...
Dat is tog
En wat heb ik hier nou aan?
And what do I have here?

Fascinerend!
Fascinating!

Maar het bewijst niets.
But that proves nothing.

The next article from nu.nl is about possible language degradation due to social media and apps:

Appen en sociale media leiden niet tot taalverloedering

Het is niet (meer) mogelijk om op dit artikel te reageren.
It is no longer possible to comment on this article.

Taal is altijd aan verandering onderhevig.
Language is always subject to change.

Het is naar mijn mening ...
It is, in my opinion ...

Waanzinnig gewoon.
Simply crazy.

Niet staat dat in de weg.
That doesn't stand in the way.

Daar doe je het voor.
That's what you do it for.

Helaas wel.
Unfortunately yes.

Wil dat zeggen dat ...
Does that mean that ...

Dat is tog een hele opluchting.
That is quite a relief.
('tog' seems to be just an emphasis word with no direct translation. Can any Dutch native speakers comment?)

Spreak voor uzelf.
Speak for yourself.

Vele ouderen hebben o.a. een smartphone.
Many elderly people have, amongst other things, a smartphone.
(o.a.: onder andere) [for a thing]
(o.a.: onder anderen) [for a person]

Taaladvies: onder andere - onder anderen

Niet helemaal.
Not really.

Ik snap sowieso niet.
Anyway, I don't understand.

U doet nu ook mee.
You are now also participating.

Nou, daar zijn we dan mooi klaar mee.
Well, we are done with that.

Dat heeft vast moeite gekost.
That has taken a lot of effort.

Je hebt helemaal gelijk.
You're absolutely correct.

Dit alles terzijde.
All this aside.

Niet echt.
Not really.

Niet zo snel!
Not so fast!

Ja, dat zal vast wel.
Yes, I think you will.

Het einde van de wereld is nabij.
The end of the world is near.

Deze gebruiker heeft zijn/haar account verwijderd.
This user has removed his/her account.
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:13 am

Vertelcultuur, a great free source of interesting short stories in high-quality, modern Dutch. Each story is approximately 3 - 5 pages. The e-magazine has a very attractive layout including colour photos and illustrations. There are currently 10 editions of the e-magazine from 2014-2018. Excellent reading.

e-zine van het Meertens Instituut over mondelinge overlevering en verhalen vertellen
e-zine from the Meertens Institute about oral tradition and storytelling

Vertelcultuur is een populair-wetenschappelijk e-magazine over (volks)verhalen, vertellen, mondelinge overlevering en vertelevenementen.
Vertelcultuur is a popular scientific e-magazine about (folk) stories, storytelling, oral tradition and storytelling events.

e-zine Vertelcultuur
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:10 pm

Well, it looks like this Dutch study group is not becoming "a place to encourage each other and discuss learning Dutch". I can only assume that my contributions are not what people had in mind about this group. The group idea is very powerful IF AND ONLY IF people participate. If people don't contribute, then there will be nothing here to discuss or learn. Where is everybody? What are you learning? What resources have you found? What questions have come up? What can we discuss? Is anyone actually studying or improving their Dutch?
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