Dutch Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
Speakeasy
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:01 am

While some of us might find it disconcerting – as fetishized second language learners – that other linguistic groups have been adopting the Lingua-Franca-of-the-month, I suggest that we bear in mind: (a) the decision to do so is being made freely by peoples who are at liberty to make decisions in this realm and of assuming the responsibilities for having done so, just as they are free and able to do in most other areas of their lives, and (b) there are presently reactionary/nationalist forces at play throughout the EU which are pulling in the opposite direction and, if history has taught us anything, the opposing swing of the pendulum, while it might have the beneficial effect of forestalling the decline of local languages, is not going to be very pretty (viz., the suppression of minority rights, ethnic cleansing, and the like). Although Chicken Little has announced the imminent tumbling of the heavens, the local populations are quite capable of deciding either to prop up the sky or to stand aside and witness its collapse. It’s their choice, not ours.

EDITED:
Lingua Franca Typos.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:49 am

Speakeasy wrote:While some of us might find it disconcerting – as fetishized second language learners – that other linguistic groups have been adopting the Lingua-Franca-of-the-month, I suggest that we bear in mind: (a) the decision to do so is being made freely by peoples who are at liberty to make decisions in this realm and of assuming the responsibilities for having done so, just as they are free and able to do in most other areas of their lives, and (b) there are presently reactionary/nationalist forces at play throughout the EU which are pulling in the opposite direction and, if history has taught us anything, the opposing swing of the pendulum, while it might have the beneficial effect of forestalling the decline of local languages, is not going to be very pretty (viz., the suppression of minority rights, ethnic cleansing, and the like). Although Chicken Little has announced the imminent tumbling of the heavens, the local populations are quite capable of deciding either to prop up the sky or to stand aside and witness its collapse. It’s their choice, not ours.


While it may not initially appear so, I appreciate your opposing opinion, Speakeasy, thank you.

Might I add that the incessant waves of protests have been occurring in a particular EU country for around a year in which an EU supporter through and through holds leadership.

For the number of nationalist countries that have practiced violent waves of ethic superiority and their associated disgusting atrocities in the last 100 years or more, it's worth mentioning that numerous nationalist countries have also practiced valuing their own culture(s) without the need to resort to violence on other peoples.

There are also numerous jurisdictions in the world claiming to be non-nationalist and open to other cultures while partaking in several wars against others.

Nationalism does not equate to violence and hatred.

Just as strongly valuing my individuality does not mean I have a tendency to hate others who are different. In fact, diversity (of cultures) I believe adds to our planet's strength.

Valuing of one country's culture(s) does not mean either that all others must be excluded from the interior of the land.

Lastly, for the powers that be, it is in their interests of advancement to denigrate opposition parties opposed to homogenizing Europe and associate them with hatred and ethic cleansing events of the past. You can love your culture and language, protect it, AND value others inside and outside your borders.

Speakeasy wrote:EDITED:
Lingua Franca Typos.

:lol:
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Speakeasy
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:25 am

PeterMollenburg wrote: ... it's worth mentioning that numerous nationalist countries have also practiced valuing their own culture(s) without the need to resort to violence on other peoples ... Valuing of one country's culture(s) does not mean either that all others must be excluded from the interior of the land ...
Granted. Nevertheless, I suggest that we not yield to the Polyannaesque temptation of believing that "what is pleasing to imagine will happen" will actually happen. Whistling past the graveyard in the face of very credible threats is not a sound strategy for self-preservation.

The "facts on the ground" concerning the nationalist movements in the EU (and they're not alone in this respect) are not a celebration of the various native cultures and linguistic diversities; they are dark, menacing, reactionary movements which are spreading fear (and hatred) of the other. We've seen this movie before, it doesn't end well!

Now that we've sparred a little, I suggest that we call a truce and return this thread to the Dutch Study Group. ;)
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chove
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby chove » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:41 am

I really like the sound and look of Dutch, but when I've tried to learn it it's interfered too much with my limited German. So I've told myself I can't learn Dutch until my German is at least B1. How have others dealt with learning these two languages? I can usually tell which language a given word belongs to, but I do mix them up on occasion.

I was briefly at Schipol Airport earlier this year (en route to Germany!) and used some polite phrases and the Dutch seemed appreciative. I suppose it's a language foreigners don't usually bother to learn, as the standard of English there is indeed excellent.

Maybe some day I will be able to embrace Dutch. I hope so!
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rdearman
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby rdearman » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:17 am

No Politics. Please refrain.
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Speakeasy
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:36 pm

chove wrote:I really like the sound and look of Dutch, but when I've tried to learn it it's interfered too much with my limited German. So I've told myself I can't learn Dutch until my German is at least B1. How have others dealt with learning these two languages? ...
I had a similar experience. When I started learning Dutch, my German was probably somewhere around B2 in reading and listening, but my speaking skills were definitely lower. I put a good year into studying Dutch quite intensively and probably entered the B1 level with a hesitant ability to speak the language. During this period, beyond a bit of reading and listening to materials with which I was already familiar, I did very little to maintain my German. And then, my wife and I spent a three-week vacation touring Belgium, the Netherlands, and Northern Germany.

The Flemish-speaking Belgians replied in English every time I tried to engage them in Dutch, even when I asked them to be patient. So then, quite aware of the linguistic tensions in the country, I returned the courtesy by switching to French. In the Netherlands, even saying hello to a waitress and ordering a coffee in Dutch became a frustrating linguistic experience: everyone replied in an almost perfect English. The ultimate self-humiliation occurred in Northern Germany where my attempts at speaking the language of Goethe sounded like the garbled speech of a drunken Dutch sailor on leave. Quite understandably, they replied in English and I quickly abandoned all effort at speaking German with my hosts.

Since that time, although my German has progressed into the C1-C2 range in reading and listening, with much regret, my speaking ability seems to be stalled at A0 ... well, okay, perhaps A0+ :ugeek: . However, out of fear of adversely affecting my German, I have not returned to studying Dutch.

By way of comparison, as my French is near-native, I have never experienced similar difficulties with my studies of Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese. In fact, I benefited from the cognate bonus and rather enjoyed the differences/similarities in grammar and pronunciation and, from the perspective of a language student, our vacations to these European countries were quite pleasant.

These experiences left me with the impression that learning two closely-related languages represents quite a challenge, one that others meet without effort but one for which I am ill-suited. I would go further by saying that the hurdle seems to be more in speaking the languages as opposed to reading or listening to them.

Chove, should you wish to study German and Dutch, I would encourage you devote equal time to both of them rather than allowing one of them to languish as I did. Perhaps the trick to maintaining them would be to have weekly seasons with a tutor in both languages.
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chove
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby chove » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:32 pm

Speakeasy wrote:Chove, should you wish to study German and Dutch, I would encourage you devote equal time to both of them rather than allowing one of them to languish as I did. Perhaps the trick to maintaining them would be to have weekly seasons with a tutor in both languages.


That's almost certainly a good idea! (Een goed idee?) One of the weirdest effects is I still sometimes say "morgen" with the Dutch pronunciation when I see it in German, even though I haven't gone near Dutch for months. I think I just really like the sound of Dutch and miss it.
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alaart
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby alaart » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:33 pm

When my Dutch friend living in Germany visits the Netherlands, he sometimes gets complicated for his "good Dutch for a German".

When I lived in the Netherlands (14 months) and returned to Germany, I couldn't speak proper German for around 3 days before it returned - even though it is my native language. That really got me puzzled.

So I can definitely relate to mixing German and Dutch, I can also relate to Dutch Speakers replying in English, or German :D - but that also is temporarily, when I improve my speaking that quickly vanishes again.

I can only say that it gets better with time, and that the brain separates them better the longer you use the language, even though I'm only using Dutch like once or twice a month now. My Dutch always will have some German words mixed into it, and the pronunciations will be German here and there, but that usually shouldn't discourage you, as it is perfectly understandable.

Ah, and a nice side effect: If you have gone through that process of mixing, you can sometimes catch another native German or Dutch speaker that lived in both countries, as you will notice that he used a word that is correct, but a bit rare, while it is common in the other language.
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:41 am

tommus wrote:
tommus wrote:Now this is real Dutch immersion.

Papa komen zwemmen moeten

A five and a half year old girl from Hungary has now been living in the Netherlands for three months. She no longer has the opportunity to speak Hungarian. She is 100% immersed in Dutch. And she seems to be doing OK.

Papa komen zwemmen moeten

Here is a follow-up article by her new father about her progress in learning Dutch. Apparently she was four and a half years old when she came to the Netherlands although her father said five and a half in the first article. According to the new article, Nene is now five (or almost six?) and has been totally immersed in Dutch for six months.

Yes! Bijna zes en van Hongaars naar Nederlands

tommus wrote:
tommus wrote:Here is a follow-up article by her new father about her progress in learning Dutch.

Here is the third article about six-year old Nene from Hungary who has been adopted by Dutch/Italian parents in the Netherlands. She is really keen on her new language.
Je moet dat niet zeggen!

And now the fourth article about Nene who is from Hungary and was adopted by a Dutch family:

Haaj! Nene leert Nederlands
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Dutch: 01 September -> 31 December 2020
Watch 1000 Dutch TV Series Videos : 6 / 1000

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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:08 pm

Very comprehensive article in Dutch about the state of the Dutch and English languages in the Netherlands and Flanders.

Het Nederlands versus het Engels
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Dutch: 01 September -> 31 December 2020
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