Dutch Study Group

[Le Baron]

The Zwarte Piet tradition is interesting. Obviously out of date now and untenable. I'd like to read or watch discussions in Dutch media about the controversies if anyone got any links?

Best to stay away from it. It seems to raise people's ire. I was told to f-off back to where I came from by someone during a discussion about this. There are two things the Dutch think are sacred (apart from tax evasion): letting off fireworks and Zwarte Piet.

[tungemål]

Angry people on sinterklaas fest (angry at the people protesting zwarte piet), and a slightly ironic/sarcastic reporter:
("Vrolijk sinterklaas-fest! Jonges, wat zijn de eieren voor nodig?)


Only for practicing Dutch. The funny thing is that the darker skinned guy was the most angry.

the Guardian, English: Comes with a warning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhqq8QO5bW4

Skjermbilde 2022-12-14 kl. 18.21.36.png

an American video blogger and her opinion as a black woman:


A podcast in Dutch:
Het langzame afscheid van Zwarte-Piet

[Le Baron]

There's nothing more amusing that listening to a Dutch fellow dressed up like the Black and White Minstrel show, with an obvious wig, trying to convince you that the entire effect isn't what you think...that the dark brown greasepaint stems from the idea of 'chimney soot' etc. Very strong vibes of justificatory denial.

Consider this this though. When my wife was of school age, she didn't really want to think of herself as different and fully embraced Zwarte Piet. They even had her dressing up. I don't even think any of this was done with an ill-will, but the fact that it's a negative stereotype with underlying implications can't be avoided. The problem is it's hardly distinguishable from so many other like types in the 'carnaval' like tradition the Dutch - or at least those who support it - feel it's being singled out. There is the fact though that it's also become something the right-wing uses to make dubious points about 'wokism' or whatever. Like those people who lie and say someone or other has 'banned Christmas'.

I actually didn't even see any Zwarte Piets this year, or the Sint. Normally you always saw one or two in the city. They must be on strike.

[tungemål]

Confusing words in Dutch

het bestand

This is a word that means more or less the same in Norwegian and German.
But in Dutch? two completely different meanings:

1: (computer) file
2: truce

[Le Baron]

Confusing words in Dutch

het bestand

This is a word that means more or less the same in Norwegian and German.
But in Dutch? two completely different meanings:

1: (computer) file
2: truce

It's a strange word really. It also means 'resistant to'. Bestand tegen: Asbest is bestand tegen vuur. Though you more commonly hear vuurbestendig/brandwerend..etc.

Outside of technical discussion people tend to be quite sloppy with all this. Such as : watervast/waterafstotend/waterbestendig/waterdicht. Using these sometimes as synonyms.

[Le Baron]

Tommus's post at this other thread interested me greatly. It's of course a phenomenon known to most people learning Dutch, but I didn't think it was so pronounced as to affect speaking and a tendency to always verbalise the endings, or find it hard not to.

I verbalise 'en' endings on quite a few words and found this quite normal when I lived in Belgium and further south in NL, though it's not consistent. It was only when I got to the Randstad area that it became more apparent.

The reason I found the post interesting was I was trying to figure for myself if I've ever transferred what I've read into speaking (or vice-versa) or if the verbal part is based purely upon real-life listening models. Being a non-native speaker I think I too ended up wanting to pronounce the 'en' endings, but that they just naturally faded away in most cases.

Nevertheless I think more people pronounce endings than is usually thought to be the case. There was an earlier discussion where tungemål posted a segment from a radio show, where the presenter certainly had the Gooische 'r' and pronounced practically no 'en' endings, but not his telephone guest. There are indeed people who pronounce endings on words even in informal speech. And with inconsistency, somewhat like French speakers are inconsistent with liaisons and where they place them.

In that respect I think you end up finding your own balance. To pronounce all 'en' endings all the time surely ends up sounding quite clunky, whereas some pronounced and some not pronounced occurs naturally for the sake of euphony and word stress.

Tell me more.

[PeterMollenburg]

I don't pronounce the 'n' with the infinitive -en endings on most Dutch verbs as well as with many plural -en endings whether I am speaking or reading aloud (to my kids more than likely). I do, as all Dutch speakers would, pronounce the 'n' with monosyllabic verbs such as 'staan' or 'gaan' when the 'n' is present according to conjugation (eg wij gaan).

As my kids follow my lead, I've noticed that are likely to point it out when I do pronounce the -n, as they find it unusual, and doing so has likely been a slip of the tongue or deliberate emphasis on a particular word, perhaps in trying to explain or repeat something that was initially not understood.

Being a non-native speaker, I base my speech on what I most commonly hear and thus how I want my speech to sound, that is Dutch as spoken generally around the Randstad region. While I've spent a good deal of time in Limburg around Maastricht in the past, I wasn't quite good enough, nor interacting enough with locals to recall (or has it just been too long?) to notice whether the 'n's were pronounced or not in the south by most.

I certainly do find general Belgian accents strikingly different than those from the Netherlands. I think I was much more comfortable listening to Belgian accents in the past than now perhaps due to having been located in Maastricht, and as I don't consume much media from Belgium nowadays.

I recall a chance encounter later, after leaving NL and being in the north of France for several weeks. We'd crossed back into Belgium (Flanders) for the afternoon and I struck up a conversation with a Flemish lady. I felt instant ease and fluidity as I switched from my broken, basic French back to the language I'd been immersed in for the six months prior to setting foot in France. How times have changed. Today, the situation is the opposite in terms of language ease when using the two languages. Okay, language nerd here - way off track.

All in all a lot of typing but not a meaty contribution... I just wanted to join the discussion dammit!

Edit:
Plonk me in a formal situation and I'd strive to focus on the speech of those around me, with special attention to -en endings. I'd then likely adjust my speech (or not) to suit depending on how acceptable the -en endings being pronounced or not appeared to be. Were I to give a speech during such a formal occasion and I was the first speaker, I would pronounce every -en ending to be safe.

[tommus]

A very good example of Dutch speakers not pronouncing the final "n" in words ending in "en" is the Netherlands NOS Journaal 20:00 from 19 December. There are many, many words ending in "en" in this newscast, and for almost all of them, the "n" was not pronounced. Even when reading a formal speech, Premier Mark Rutte did not pronounce the final "n"s. There were a few, very few occasions when the final "n" was pronounced. Almost none.

NOS Journaal 20:00 from 19 December

[Le Baron]

Indeed not many at all, though two were pronounced within the first 30 seconds! 'weken' and 'honderden'. Rutte said "zonen" (not 'zoons' but why not?).

It all sounds quite normal and this pronunciation isn't new. If you watch the Polygoon nieuws, from the 1960s it's already becoming more prominent and that voice-over was deliberately aiming for the best pronunciation.

Dutch has certainly become uglier to my ears. Yet so has French and English.... Much more mumbling and babbling.

[tungemål]

Hoe gaat het in het koude kikkerland?
(a funny phrase apparently sometimes used to refer to the Netherlands)