Dutch Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:01 pm

tungemål wrote:Ok thanks, that was helpful.
But my question was: The expression 'ik stel het erg op prijs' looks like it is literally: "put something on price" instead of "put price on something".


It is! I place it in a position of value.

Think of the structure as being like this: op peil houden (or brengen). Je moet het op peil houden. Ik moet het weer op peil brengen. That sort of thing.

This is a common structural pattern.
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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:40 pm

Many people say that it is difficult to learn to speak Dutch in the Netherlands because the Dutch switch to English as soon as they detect that you are not a native Dutch speaker. That is certainly my experience while living six years in the Netherlands. I have learned much more Dutch after I lived in the Netherlands. Here is an interesting article on that subject in Dutch with comments from Dutch language researchers and teachers.

Slecht Nederlands? Praat geen Engels terug, zegt onderzoeker
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Iversen
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Iversen » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:51 pm

I have only visited the Netherlands and the Flanders as a tourist, but during my latest visits I have stubbornly refused to speak anything but Dutch, and they accepted it grudgingly. The point could be that they are so good at speaking English that they don't have to prove it all the time.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:21 pm

I've definitely experienced this. I was accepting of it in the beginning of our five month Dutch stay 11 years back, as my language level was still too low in the wild. It's understandable that it happens, especially in a shop or in a situation in which an efficient transaction is taking place.

Nearing the end of our stay given my vocabulary, speed (of speaking, listening), comfort and language level had improved quite a lot (lots of daily study, more experience in the wild), any native Dutch speakers switching to English (because I shared where I was from, discerned accent, grammar or vocab gaps) were met with a continuing Dutch conversation. Most switched back. It was never because they wished to undermine me of course, but politely (and perhaps automatically) just wished to facilite communication.

As the article points out, Indeed it would be ideal were native Dutch speakers not so quick to resort to English.
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Inge
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Inge » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:34 am

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Last edited by Inge on Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tungemål
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tungemål » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:21 pm

I suppose you're Dutch? Anyway that lines up with what Le Baron said.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:22 pm

This bit from that RTL article is somewhat laughable:

Antropoloog Rik Roelfzema denkt dat er nog meer achter zit. We zijn volgens hem niet chauvinistisch, zoals de Italianen of Spanjaarden wel zijn. "In Spanje en Italië word je gewoon in de originele taal toegesproken en verder niks. Dat is de arrogantie van de cultuur."

In Nederland heerst een ander sentiment. "In onze cultuur zetten we onze eigenheid niet voorop", vervolgt de antropoloog. "Wij zijn een soort kameleon en wij nemen eigenschappen van de ander over. Het gebruiken van Engels is een manier om een connectie te maken."


It says a lot about how the Dutch want to see themselves compared to how they really are, and to claim "In onze cultuur zetten we onze eigenheid niet voorop" is completely absurd and contrary to even the casual Dutch self-observation concerning the Dutch trait of 'onverschilligheid'. Addressing e.g. an Arab or an African or a Russian in English is hardly inclusive or helpful. Who is to say the African isn't primarily a French speaker aside from whatever other language they speak? And since French is an official EU language they'd be well within their right to speak it. Moreover the person may well be trying very hard to actually speak Dutch.

Is it 'chauvinistic' and 'arrogant' for Spaniards and Italians to speak Spanish or Italian in Spain or Italy? That's a ridiculous conclusion. Also this notion that all people in NL switch to English isn't entirely true, it matters who the person is and what the context is. There's a joke that went around here that if you go into a French bar and ask 'does anyone here speak English?' Someone will eventually, grudgingly say: 'Maybe, but we're not going to'. Yet if you go into a bar here and say 'does anyone speak English?' 3/4 of the clientele run at you shouting 'me, me, ME!'
Turn up at the gemeentehuis or a shop with a complaint however and you'll be forced to speak Dutch. Quite a lot of people will just speak Dutch to you and some will even say, half serious, 'spreek Nederlands man!' Especially if they started speaking English, but the replies start getting a bit more complicated than high-school/Netflix achievement level, the common reply is: 'jij kan Engels blijven praten als je wilt, maar ik ga terug naar het Nederlands...' As we know production is harder than listening.

For a certain portion of the population it's entirely to do with a self-perception of national English fluency. Contrary to what Roelfzema claims, the view here is to get things done quickly and there is a good deal of impatience with both resident natives and strangers. More than once 've seen the absurd spectacle of a Nederlander addressing another Nederlander in English because the person didn't immediately reply or had a non-standard accent.

Since I've never believed the argument of 'people are just trying to help', whenever I used to get spoken to in English (and it still happens on occasion) I just repeat in Dutch that I can't understand it. Implying that the English is too incomprehensible. Sometimes it is, but I want to give people a rare bit of pain which often isn't forthcoming in these situations, otherwise they'll carry on doing it to everyone. Luckily I have an adequate enough level of Dutch which allows me to take up that challenge should someone say: but can you actually speak it better than I do English?
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tungemål
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tungemål » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:33 pm


Do you agree with the slightly offensive conclusion in the article? The Dutch "zijn niet chauvinistisch, zoals de Italianen of Spanjaarden..."
(edit: Le Baron answered this before I posted it.)

When I go to Holland I look forward to speaking Dutch, and impress the natives with my impeccable Dutch who'll say "Je spreekt zo elegant. Waar kom je vandaan, is het mischien Zuid Holland of België".
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Inge
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Inge » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:21 pm

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Last edited by Inge on Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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grayson
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby grayson » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:45 pm

Le Baron wrote:Luckily I have an adequate enough level of Dutch which allows me to take up that challenge should someone say: but can you actually speak it better than I do English?

My most recent job was at a hip young startup in Leiden. I was the oldest employee by far – a decade older than the founders, and old enough to be the mother of many of the rest. That was hard to wrap my head around (in my mind, I'm twenty-seven and probably always will be). But that gap in age gave me one great pleasure. The official company language was English, to accommodate our non-Dutch colleagues and clients, and many of my native-Dutch colleagues were surprised to discover that my American self also spoke Dutch. I took great relish in saying to the younger among them, "I've been speaking the language longer than you have." ;)
Last edited by grayson on Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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