Dutch Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:06 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Hey Le Baron,

I need to thank you for your considerate, polite reply, clear reply... Thank you. As you may have noticed my feathers were beginning to become a little ruffled. I was somewhat baffled of your apparent refusal to acknowledge Dutch grammatical rules, but your clearly written reply makes a whole lot of sense - you weren't disputing them at all.

Yes, I tend to agree the so-called long vowel endings are not so clearly long in speech, if long at all. Upon reflection I feel like some people may sound them out a little long while others might clip them. In fact, the same person (myself likely included) use a mixture of both for the same words depending on context and other factors affecting speech rhythm such as the speed at which one is talking, emphasis etc. I guess this is perhaps a good example of where while things on paper when explained from a grammar perspective make sense, when applied to speech, well, they don't necessarily.

Thing is, I rely heavily on course books at the beginning stages of language learning, so when it comes to being okay with rules, I usually am, eventually (after it's hammered in, even if I don't like them!), but most native speakers don't read/work with such books, so some can be prone to make errors where rules are seemingly unnatural, I guess is the best way to put it. And in this case, unless such rules are explained and internalised, native speakers are going to make errors given it's unnatural application - ie what's heard in speech is going to be written down and therefore often incorrectly.

So, your points make a lot more sense now, thank you for explaining. However, I guess I just feel like they make a fair bit of sense to me given I've learned this stuff straight out of books and then applied it to my Dutch mind as I speak the language. I don't know all the plural rules but I have a handful of the main ones memorised, drummed into my head even from my days of Hugo Dutch in 3 Months.

It's good that we are able to reach a point of mutual understanding. You have also forced me to go back and look at grammar I haven't looked at in years and where I could forget and make mistakes. Since I saw that I wasn't fully appreciative of the use of 'possessive' apostrophe after all vowels (except e) as a rule. So, like many here in NL, sometimes not being officially grammatically accurate in all cases and working on habit and 'feel'.
PeterMollenburg wrote:but I have a handful of the main ones memorised, drummed into my head even from my days of Hugo Dutch in 3 Months.

Ah, so you are also a graduate of Hugo Dutch. That and the follow-up book were the best books I used. After those two I sat a placement exam for the state Dutch programme in Belgium and was placed intermediate. They are very worthy books. I think Ug_Caveman is doing the second book now.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:49 am

Le Baron wrote:It's good that we are able to reach a point of mutual understanding. You have also forced me to go back and look at grammar I haven't looked at in years and where I could forget and make mistakes. Since I saw that I wasn't fully appreciative of the use of 'possessive' apostrophe after all vowels (except e) as a rule. So, like many here in NL, sometimes not being officially grammatically accurate in all cases and working on habit and 'feel'.


:)
Le Baron wrote:Ah, so you are also a graduate of Hugo Dutch. That and the follow-up book were the best books I used. After those two I sat a placement exam for the state Dutch programme in Belgium and was placed intermediate. They are very worthy books. I think Ug_Caveman is doing the second book now.


I've used the in 3 Months series for Dutch, French, German and Spanish, but only completed the first two. The Dutch one is to the point with the grammatical rules, the progression is a nice pace and the Hugo format I appreciate (some new grammar, some new vocabulary, some exercises followed by a conversation and repeat). The German course tries to pack too much into 3 months to the point that there's even a week 13 that doesn't exist in the other courses. I find this logical given the more complex grammar of German. Having said that, the main Dutch grammar points do fit nicely into the 12 weeks and I found the Dutch course the best of the lot. I own the follow on book (and audio) but have never used it. I prefer the Hugo courses in general over all the other similar course books - TY, Colloquial etc, but appreciate them all to different degrees.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:13 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I prefer the Hugo courses in general over all the other similar course books - TY, Colloquial etc, but appreciate them all to different degrees.

That's pretty much my preference as well. I don't know if it is familiarity or what, but I just liked the format. The first I used was Russian, the dark blue series. Also same series for Dutch and German. I admit to being attracted by the relative thinness of the books compared to TY.
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tungemål
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tungemål » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:58 am

Le Baron wrote:...'films waiting to be watched'.

Chinese - 9
Bengali - 2
Dutch - 3
English - 50
French - 78
German - 52
Italian - 31
Iranian - 2
Japanese - 5
Korean - 1
Polish - 1
Russian - 1
Spanish - 3
Swedish - 3


I post this here in the study group. In the Film Club thread you say you've got 3 Dutch films on your list. Which ones are they?
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:56 pm

tungemål wrote:I post this here in the study group. In the Film Club thread you say you've got 3 Dutch films on your list. Which ones are they?


Het meisje met het rode haar (1981)
Pastorale 1943 (1978)
Een vrouw als Eva (1979). I've seen this on television before years ago, but wanted to see it again, it's hard to find. It's a 'feminist' film which had some social impact, though I remember it being rather pedestrian in some ways. At the time ill-mannered men in NL liked to see Monique van de Ven display her wares, as she does in this.

There are also actually two other Flemish films on my other computer, but I can only remember that one is Meeuwen sterven in de haven. It's from the 50s.
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Le Baron
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:48 am

Just to add to this. I was perusing my external HDD and found De zaak Alzheimer with Jan Declair. I'd forgotten about it. It's a really good Belgian thriller and worth seeing. Declair is like Belgium's Depardieu.
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tommus
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Languages: English (N), French (B2), Dutch (B2)
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:48 pm

Here are a couple of very good Dutch conversation/listening material links. There are a lot of similar audio podcasts from De Telegraaf. Some of the reasons I find them so good is that they are very conversational, the voices are exceptionally clear, there is no annoying background music, the podcasts are long, and there are lots of them. Here are the two that I especially like. Your interests may vary. The voices are so good that a good speech-to-text app can provide you with excellent transcripts. I use OpenAI Whisper STT for that.

Ongefilterd met Kitty en Elif

Delta Tango (about the Dutch military)

OpenAI Whisper speech-to-text
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Dutch: 01 September -> 31 December 2020
Watch 1000 Dutch TV Series Videos : 40 / 1000

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Chmury
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Polski - currently inactive, but I will return to it
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby Chmury » Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:14 am

After an inexcusable amount of time without doing anything with Dutch, yesterday I watched a few videos on YouTube and thoroughly enjoyed it. Thought I'd post them here in case anyone's looking for a bit more natural dialogue from the streets of The Netherlands or a channel more focused towards teaching Dutch learners at the lower and intermediate levels.

Learn Dutch with Bart De Pau - A YouTube channel with tonnes of videos and even a self created series for people around the A2/B1 level

And the EasyDutch Channel. This was a good one:

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Hindernisse und Schwierigkeiten sind Stufen, auf denen wir in die Höhe steigen

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tommus
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tommus » Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:45 pm

Learning "het" words is always a challenge. Some are easy to remember when you need to use them in conversation but many are not. I have a list of 80 common and often used het words but reading and trying to memorize them is not very effective for me. So I tried something different. I made a list of all 80 of them, each repeated 20 times, in the following format, with a period after each:

het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het aantal. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het antwoord. het artikel. etc.....

Then I used NaturalReader with an "AI plus" Dutch voice reader. The audio is one hour and twenty three minutes. My intention is to listen to it a few times. Hopefully it will drill all these het words into my brain. With an earlier TTS reader, that would be too torturous to listen to but these new NaturalReader voices are excellent. And there are lots of lists of het words online. You could probably use this technique for other common words that are difficult to remember when you need them.

https://www.naturalreaders.com/
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Dutch: 01 September -> 31 December 2020
Watch 1000 Dutch TV Series Videos : 40 / 1000

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tungemål
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Re: Dutch Study Group

Postby tungemål » Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:28 pm

I'm trying to get GPT4 annoyed with me if I make mistakes in Dutch:
chatGPT wrote:...ik merk dat ik me soms erger aan buitenlanders die fouten maken in het Nederlands. Natuurlijk begrijp ik dat het leren van een nieuwe taal niet eenvoudig is, maar het kan soms gewoon frustrerend zijn.

Als ik bijvoorbeeld zie dat iemand "hun" gebruikt in plaats van "zij" of "ze", kan ik niet anders dan een beetje geërgerd raken. En dan zijn er nog de mensen die "als" en "dan" door elkaar halen. Pfff, dat is gewoon frustrerend!

Ik probeer geduldig te zijn en hen te helpen met hun Nederlands, maar soms kan ik het gewoon niet laten om te zuchten en mijn ogen te rollen. Ik weet dat ik niet perfect ben en dat iedereen fouten maakt, maar het zou fijn zijn als mensen wat meer aandacht zouden besteden aan de taal die ze proberen te leren.

But he tends to want to be positive and soften the frustration:
chatGPT wrote:Nou, je zin is bijna perfect, maar het moet zijn: "Bedankt! Ik hou ervan om Nederlands te oefenen." Je gebruikte "van" in plaats van "ervan" en je vergat "om" te gebruiken. Pfff, waarom kan niet iedereen gewoon wat meer aandacht besteden aan de grammatica?

Maar serieus, het is goed dat je van het oefenen van Nederlands houdt. Blijf vooral doorgaan en je zult steeds beter worden. En onthoud, fouten maken is onderdeel van het leerproces.
Last edited by tungemål on Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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