Classical Languages - Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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Deinonysus
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby Deinonysus » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:40 pm

lavengro wrote:
sfuqua wrote:I'm interested in the TYOE challenge. I've worked some with the old TY book.

Does the new one have any new audio?

Hi sfuqua,

Mine arrived Friday. The book itself is very nicely put together physically in terms of size, paper choice and layout. Feels good in the hand and looks good on a bookshelf. The accompanying audio is freely available online once you set up a free account. It consists of 86 units, some quite short.

https://library.teachyourself.com/id004325519/Complete-Old-English

Awesome, thanks for posting! The audio isn't available yet on the app so I didn't notice it, but I was able to listen in a browser.

I checked my CD of the previous version and the first and last tracks seem to be the same (except that the CD starts with a brief copyright notice). However, the CD has only 61 tracks, so 25 of the online tracks must be new additions, unless some of the tracks have simply been split up.
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Querneus
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby Querneus » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:43 pm

Today I happened to be reading something about the development of Proto-Germanic verbs. Germanic "strong" (irregular) verbs are divided into seven classes, depending on their path of development (mostly based around the structure of the root, except for class #7).

After poking around the origin of the irregular verbs of modern English for a while, I discovered that, as it turns out, modern English does still have at least one good example from each of the seven Proto-Germanic strong verb classes!

class 1 (-y- [j] inside PIE root):
Proto-Indo-European *Hreydh- > Proto-Germanic *rīdaną *raid *ridun *ridanaz
> Old English rīdan rād ridon (ġe)riden
> ModEng ride rode ridden

class 2 (-w- [w] inside PIE root):
Proto-Indo-European *prews- > Proto-Germanic *freusaną *fraus *fruzun *fruzanaz
> Old English frēosan frēas frūron (ġe)froren
> ModEng freeze froze frozen

class 3 (sonorant [m n r l] + consonant at PIE root end):
Proto-Indo-European *dhre(n)g- > Proto-Germanic *drinkaną *drank *drunkun *drunkanaz
> Old English drincan dranc druncon (ġe)druncen
> ModEng drink drank drunk

class 4 (bare sonorant at PIE root end, or sonorant + laryngeal at PIE root end):
Proto-Indo-European *gwem- > Proto-Germanic *kwemaną *kwam *kwēmun *kumanaz
> Old English cuman cwōm cwōmon (ġe)cumen
> ModEng come came come

class 5 (stop or oral fricative at PIE root end):
Proto-Indo-European *h1ed- > Proto-Germanic *etaną *ēt *ētun *etanaz
> Old English etan ǣt ǣton (ġe)eten
> ModEng eat ate eaten

class 6 (laryngeal h2 or -o- inside PIE root):
Proto-Indo-European *sleh2k- > Proto-Germanic *slahaną *slōh *slōgun *slaganaz
> Old English slēan slōg slōgon (ġe)slæġen
> ModEng slay slew/slayed slain/slayed

class 7 (reduplicated stem in Proto-Germanic 2nd and 3rd principal parts):
Proto-Indo-European *ghreh1- > Proto-Germanic *grōaną *grerō *grerōun *grōanaz
> Old English grōwan grēow grēowon (ġe)grōwen
> ModEng grow grew grown
Last edited by Querneus on Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IronMike
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby IronMike » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am

Those who are interested in the Old English mini-challenge:

IronMike
David1917
Mista
PfifltriggPi
Systematiker
lavengro
Deinonysus
Ser
marie39
sfuqua

As stated previously, this doesn't commit anyone above (except me!) to doing this.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:53 pm

Ser wrote:Today I happened to be reading something about the development of Proto-Germanic verbs. Germanic "strong" (irregular) verbs are divided into seven classes, depending on their path of development (mostly based around the structure of the root, except for class #7).

After poking around the origin of the irregular verbs of modern English for a while, I discovered that, as it turns out, modern English does still have at least one good example from each of the seven Proto-Germanic strong verb classes!
I found this connection to be somewhat helpful while learning Old Norse, but of no help learning German.
Just to add one to your list, for ON there is
Class #1 bíta beit bitu bitit (English bite)

Very useful share. Thanks.
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Tu sabes cuando sales pero no sabes cuando regresas.

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Querneus
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby Querneus » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:40 am

I found this list I made a good while ago of names of the Roman gods used as eponyms. Eponyms are normal concepts or objects named after a person's name, or in this case a god's name.

Most of the information here has been adapted from the Oxford Latin Dictionary, with the remaining few things about Romance coming from elsewhere, particularly the Trésor de la langue française. In general, any statue could be referred to directly by the represented god's name, say, "(the) Ceres at that corner", but besides that, the following lists include substitutions like that for particular things.

Apollo
- the Sun (often so with the name Phoebus adapted from Greek too)
- the temple of Apollo at Actium (built by Augustus)
- the planet Mercury

Ceres
- wheat
- bread
- food

Diana
- hunting
- the Moon

Flora
- the time when flowers blossom in Spring
- (From the 18th century, what we call the "flora" of a place in English. This was originally a reference to the ancient goddess by Enlightenment scientists/philosophers.)

Janus
- the month of January
- as Jānus Quirīnus (Quirinus = the name of Romulus' god form), a specific shrine in Rome's forum whose doors would open during times of major wars
- any of the three archways on the eastern side of Rome's forum, frequented by loan sharks and merchants
- (also any door, but etymologically the name of the god comes from this old word for "door", not the other way around)

Juno
- the planet Venus
- the Roman Emperor's wife
- any man's wife, often as a joke
- as Jūnō īnferna "Juno from below", the goddess Proserpina (~ Greek Persephone) who is the wife of Orcus/Pluto
- in the plural (Jūnōnēs), a woman's personal protective spirit (men instead were said to be protected by their genius, i.e. the spirit of their gēns or patrilineal lineage)
- as Jūnō Monēta, a mint (building to forge coins in), a stamp or mold to make coins with, or the money produced itself ("Moneta" was a traditional title of Juno's among the Romans. The original meaning of this title is lost, as Romans falsely reinterpreted it as a translation of the name of the Greek goddess Mnemosyne (literally "Memory"), the mother of the Muses, due to the verb monēre 'to remind sb of sth'. Greeks apparently used to say Mnemosyne was Hera/Juno's aunt.)

Jupiter
- the sky
- the air
- wind
- the planet Jupiter
- the Nile river (by being identified with the Egyptian god Osiris)
- any powerful god, e.g. Juppiter stygius "Jupiter of the Styx river" and Juppiter niger "black Jupiter" for Orcus/Pluto, Juppiter antīquus "ancient Jupiter" for Saturn
- the Roman emperor as a 2nd-person title in panegyrics
- (also attested once in Plautus in a moment where a man sarcastically says hi to another as a joke: "Somebody's talking nearby, and I don't know who it is." "O, my Jupiter-on-Earth, your feasting partner is talking to you!" "O Saturio, it's great you've visited me now..." --from the play Persa, act I, scene 3)

Liber (~ Greek Dionysius, Bacchus)
- wine

Mars
- war
- a battle
- a style of battling, e.g. mars pedestris '(the concept of) fighting on foot'
- a leader's force of arms
- a person's war spirit
- the advantage of fortune of a faction in war
- an army, or at a smaller size a troop
- a fleet of ships
- the planet Mars
- a contention of law at a city's forum
- a person's own prowess to do something
- also attested once in reference to Emperor Diocletian

Mercury
- the planet Mercury

Minerva
- the occupation of spinning or weaving
- a person's mind in terms of their memory, intelligence, taste, personal habits or tendencies
- as Minerva Palātīna "Minerva of the Palatine Hill", the high Roman state, e.g. Palātīnae cultor Minervae (Martial V.5.1) "worshipper of Palatine Minerva" in reference to one Sɘxtus who was a librarian for the Emperor

Neptunus
- the sea, as either its surface or its depths
- fish from the sea
- (This word survives into Old French as netun, by then the name of a bestiary sea monster and also a mischievous spirit of rivers and seas at night. The Trésor de la langue française says this word is eggcorned as nuiton likely after nuit 'night', and then eggcorned again as luiton probably after luitier 'to struggle', remodelled as luitin probably after hutin 'quarrelsome, troublemaker', becoming modern lutin by now 'night imp, pixie' (a small mischievous demon). The Trésor mentions the existence of a sermon by 7th-century French bishop St. Eligius telling people to stop believing in pagan spirits like Orcus, Neptune and Diana.)

Orcus (also known by his adapted name from Greek, Pluto, or as Dis Pater "The Rich Father", but these two names are not used eponymously)
- death
- the underworld, e.g. faucēs Orcī 'the entrance of the underworld' (lit. "Orcus' jaws")
- (This word survives in French/Italian as ogre/orco, a man-eating giant. In Spanish, it survives as huerco, at first a synonym of the Devil, nowadays the literary figure of a depressed man crying in the dark; in Mexico, also any teenager or young man; in the traditional Spanish of the southwestern United States, also little boys.)

Saturn
- the planet Saturn

Venus
- a woman who inspires love in one
- Julius Caesar, who claimed descent from her through Aeneas
- the planet Venus
- the best throw in dicing with tālī, when each of the four shows a different face
- vegetables
- sɘxual charm, the quality of attracting sɘxual love
- (without sɘxual connotation) charm, grace
- sɘxual appetite, sɘx (attested as both a concept abstraction and intercourse itself), for both humans or animals
[the last entries are mildly censored with a reversed "e" to try to avoid getting the forum automaticaly censored by naïve algorithms...]

Vesta
- her sacred fire, kept alive by the Vestal Virgins
- any hearth

Vulcan
- fire, flames
- (In the the Middle Ages, it became popular in Romance languages and Arabic to refer to the volcanos of northeastern Sicily with the name of this god, due to the ancient belief that Mt. Etna was Vulcan's forge. The Ancient Romans did not distinguish mountains from volcanos, referring to either type of geological feature as a mōns 'mount'. In fact, they didn't distinguish lava from fire either, and even modern European languages didn't gain a word for "lava" until the 18th century with the development of vulcanology and closer observations of active volcanos.)
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IronMike
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby IronMike » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:54 pm

If you missed it and you're interested, the TY Complete Old English holiday mini-challenge starts tomorrow. Information at this thread devoted to the challenge.
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IronMike
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby IronMike » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:38 am

Can any of you Latin scholars help my wife out with a translation? She would like a "motto-like" translation for:

Knowledge at any cost
and
Knowledge at any price
[in case they're different]

This is for a story she's writing for a class.

Thanks in advance!
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Lamonte
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby Lamonte » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:07 am

Latin words for knowledge, each with slightly different meanings:
scientia (knowledge, skill, or science)
cognitio (acquiring knowledge)
ars (character, science, knowledge, skill)
Disco is a Latin verb meaning I learn or I acquire knowledge.
"to learn" = discere

"at any" = ad quis
"Cost" or "price" = precium, pretium, or caritas

The phrase "at any price" could also be expressed in a single word = carissime
The Latin adverb "care" means at great cost/at high price. Using the superlative "carissime" would mean at the greatest cost.

Then combine the words you prefer. Examples:
cognitio ad quis caritas
ars carissime
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IronMike
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby IronMike » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:02 pm

Lamonte wrote:Latin words for knowledge, each with slightly different meanings:
scientia (knowledge, skill, or science)
cognitio (acquiring knowledge)
ars (character, science, knowledge, skill)
Disco is a Latin verb meaning I learn or I acquire knowledge.
"to learn" = discere

"at any" = ad quis
"Cost" or "price" = precium, pretium, or caritas

The phrase "at any price" could also be expressed in a single word = carissime
The Latin adverb "care" means at great cost/at high price. Using the superlative "carissime" would mean at the greatest cost.

Then combine the words you prefer. Examples:
cognitio ad quis caritas
ars carissime

Thank you! I'll pass this on to my wife.
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Querneus
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Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby Querneus » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:40 am

That is a bad translation. "Ad quis" isn't even grammatically correct Latin ("ad" doesn't take the nominative).

Try:
cuiuslibet pretii scientia

(cuiuslibet pretiī scientia if you like macrons)
Last edited by Querneus on Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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