Classical Languages - Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
User avatar
Ogrim
Brown Belt
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
x 4168

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby Ogrim » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:01 am

RyanSmallwood wrote:Does anyone know which Old Norse audio resources use reconstructed pronunciation rather than modern icelandic pronunciation? I know Jackson Crawford does, though most of his videos are filled mostly with English explanations, though luckily he did 2 Old Norse readings I'm aware of here and here. Its nice to have some examples, but it would be cool to have more extensive recordings, or at least to collect all the available samples together.


I've come across this page which is aimed at Norwegian high school students. There is a short film (30 minutes) where all the actors speak Old Norse, and there is a shorter video presenting a text and how to pronounce it. It is not much but better than nothing and as far as I can tell it is not modern Icelandic pronunciation.

N.B. the page is in Norwegian and so are the subtitles of the short film.
3 x
Ich grolle nicht

mokibao
Orange Belt
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:44 pm
Languages: Studying: way too many
x 313

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby mokibao » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:34 pm

A couple months ago a podcast came out in Ancient Greek: https://anchor.fm/ellenizometha

It notably stars the author of the work-in-progress "Nature method" for Ancient Greek aka Lingua Graecae Per Se Illustrata (LGPSI): https://seumasjeltzz.github.io/LinguaeG ... llustrata/

I don't speak any variety of Greek beyond long-forgotten crumbs from high school and have no idea if it's Koine, Attic, Homeric, Doric, Tsakonian, whatever. They appear to use Erasmian reconstructed pronunciation.

As a bonus, here's the legendary A. Z. Foreman reciting the opening verses of the Odyssey in reconstructed Attic pronunciation (presumably reading it as Plato would have) with a nice background music for extra immersion: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/99zo46otdwkaoi ... pening.mp3
10 x

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 4806

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:47 pm

Les Belles Lettres have announced their 8 or 9 newest classical Budé texts. Their texts are not inexpensive. Amazon lists at least one of them, but without a 'Look Inside' feature, so you can't be sure what you are getting. Once I bought from them a copy of Thucydides expecting notes and commentary, but the paperback edition I got had nothing at all very extensive. I was stuck with just another copy of Thudydides. In general it must be admitted the Budé editions often receive high praise, but I cannot attest to it personally. Anyway, these are the latest.
3 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 600
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2407

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby guyome » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:29 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Once I bought from them a copy of Thucydides expecting notes and commentary, but the paperback edition I got had nothing at all very extensive. I was stuck with just another copy of Thudydides.
The Budés are often quite expensive indeed. So much so that I own very few of them, and most of these I got for free or bought secondhand for no more than 10€ or so.

However the point of the Budés is not the notes or the commentary (the quantity and length of these depending on the editor). The Budés are first and foremost critical editions, meaning the editor went back to the manuscripts to produce what (s)he thinks is the closest thing to what the author originally wrote, with important variants from manuscripts listed in a critical apparatus below the Latin text. Critical editions are vital for researchers (and my opinion is that Les Belles Lettres' Budés are so expensive partly because they know university libraries and students presenting the CAPES, the Agrégation de Lettres classiques or the Agrégation de Grammaire have to buy them).

As far as I know, there are only three publishers who bother with producing critical Latin and Greek editions: Les Belles Lettres (Budé), Teubner, and the Oxford Classical Texts series (the last two without translations of the Latin or the Greek). You can of course find the occasional critical edition elsewhere, but these three are unmatched in the scope of their endeavour, i.e. publishing the whole corpus of Classical Latin and Greek authors.

One thing I find even more annoying than the price is the fact that they divide long works in as many volumes as possible (3 for the Aeneid, 45(!) for Livius, etc.)
To be fair, they also publish pocket editions (around 10€ for a middle-sized volume), reprinting the same Latin text as the "real" Budé, often with new introductions and translations. The main difference is that these pocket editions come without the critical apparatus.

For instance, you can buy the 3-vol. "real" Budé édition of Apuleius' Metamorphoses for around 90€ (red cover with the she-wolf) or you can settle for the 1-vol. pocket edition (4th cover) and spend only 20€. In both cases, you get the Latin text established by Robertson, but the translation is not the same and the all-important (to researchers) critical apparatus is missing.

Image

The problem is that the pocket editions' catalogue is still lagging far behind the "real" Budés (althout it is steadily expanding) and, consequently, not every author or work can be read using the less expensive pocket editions. Years ago, when the number of volumes published in pocket editions was still quite low, I solved the problem by buying a lot of Latin-Italian editions, like this 10€ copy of Apuleius' Metamorphoses. Really boosted my Latin reading to finally be able to buy cheap editions of any author I wanted to, instead of relying on the occasional low-priced find in secondhand bookshops.

Image
6 x

indeclinable
Yellow Belt
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:57 pm
Languages: Spanish (N), English (C2), German (C1), Latin (C1), French (B2), Ancient Greek (B1), Italian (A2).

Want to study: Japanese & Russian
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8803
x 184

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby indeclinable » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:50 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Les Belles Lettres have announced their 8 or 9 newest classical Budé texts. Their texts are not inexpensive. Amazon lists at least one of them, but without a 'Look Inside' feature, so you can't be sure what you are getting. Once I bought from them a copy of Thucydides expecting notes and commentary, but the paperback edition I got had nothing at all very extensive. I was stuck with just another copy of Thudydides. In general it must be admitted the Budé editions often receive high praise, but I cannot attest to it personally. Anyway, these are the latest.


Word of advice, if you're looking for commentaries (there's many types of them) it's better if you ask and describe what you're looking for. Thucydides is (after Plato, Aristotle and Homer) the Greek author that has the most commentaries dedicated to his work.

What exactly are you looking for in commentary of Thucydides? (Historical context?, help with the interpretation of the Greek?, interesting facts about persons, events, things and places described? A combination of all of them?). It is possible that there's one out there that's exactly what you're looking for, but it's also possible that's in German, so you need to ask what's the next best thing.

The best place to ask these questions is r/AncientGreek or r/Latin in reddit.

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Les Belles Lettres the Budé editions often receive high praise


Although there are (and have been) some excellent French scholars, the last century has seen a very clear and precipitous decline in French scholarship related to Classics, to the point that now it comes in a very, very late fourth place behind Germany, UK/USA and Italy, barely ahead of Spain.
4 x
Omnis lingua usu potius discitur quam praeceptis, id est audiendo, legendo, relegendo, imitationem manu et lingua temptando quam creberrime. – Iohannes Amos Comenius

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 4806

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:19 pm

@Guyome and indeclinable

Thanks to both of you for your helpful comments.
Let me explain further my situation. Although no ancient Greek writer is "easy," Thucydides presents more problems to me than any other prose writer. I think I am not alone in this. The commentaries that I am aware of are for the most part from the 19th century, and I wanted something of more recent date. I am not saying, by the way, that "19th century" = "dated." What I wanted was a fresh point of view, if there is one.

What I have on hand in the way of "modern" commentaries are (1) Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War Book II (Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics) Greek Edition by Jeffrey S. Rusten, 1989, (2) Thucydides Book I by P. J. Rhoades from Aris and Phillips, 2014, and (3) Thucydides' Melian Dialogue, Commentary, Text and Vocabulary by Paula Dunbar, 2016. In addition I have R. Robert Connor's Thucydides (a book in dire need of a better title), kind of a general commentary from 1984. Also I have pdfs of the whole text with commentaries by various writers, all or nearly all from the 19th century. There is also too I suppose Strassler's Landmark Thucydides, but to my way of thinking his large tomes are suitable for reading only at a large executive desk or in a carrel in library stacks with lots of elbow room, and not in an easy chair or on a sofa.

The description that I read about the Budé seemed to offer a fresh and detailed point of view, but clearly it referred to the hardback and not the paperback that I ordered.

The comments of each of you on Budés, French scholarship and German commentaries have been duly noted. What I was hoping for and expecting from a commentary was help understanding the text as well as historical help rather like what How and Wells provided for Herodotus. I also appreciate the reference to reddit. I don't do social media, but I will make an exception in this case. Otherwise I rely on Textkit, which has two or three excellent and helpful members, but otherwise it has its deficiencies.
5 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

indeclinable
Yellow Belt
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:57 pm
Languages: Spanish (N), English (C2), German (C1), Latin (C1), French (B2), Ancient Greek (B1), Italian (A2).

Want to study: Japanese & Russian
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8803
x 184

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby indeclinable » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:39 am

MorkTheFiddle wrote:What I wanted was a fresh point of view, if there is one.


What exactly do you mean by "point of view"? Because if by that you mean a global or general interpretation of the author or his work, that's usually the sort of thing that you don't find in a commentary. For that there's usually monographs like the Brill's Companion to Thucydides, Rusten's Thucydides, Herter's Thukydides or Erbse's Thukydides-Interpretationen, that try to encompass what scholars think about this author. There's also individual monographs like Hornblower's or Kagan's. Jacqueline de Romilly is particularly prolific and has many of those like Histoire et raison chez Thucydide or Thucydide et l'impérialisme athénien, and, of course Canfora.

There's many good interpretations like those, evidently they all contradict each other and they are all very modern. Thucydides is the sort of author that never let's you get a stable point of view of him. This resource page is very useful, in the section "interpretations" you may find more books like the ones I've just mentioned.

By the way, you'll be surprised how fresh and sensible some very old books are and how antiquated some very recent books are. In general, be very distrustful of books (specially if they are recent) that offer a "offer a fresh and detailed point of view", at least when dealing with Classical Authors.

MorkTheFiddle wrote:What I was hoping for and expecting from a commentary was help understanding the text as well as historical help rather like what How and Wells provided for Herodotus.


Those are two very different things you mention. (Also How and Wells is very, very outdated and has received much criticism, the only reason it's still around it's because there's no better alternative in English for the whole Herodotus, there's only one of Book V and Book III. If you can read Italian, look for the commentaries of the Fondazione Lorenzo Valla).

If you want help in understanding the text I must tell you that what most scholars understand by "helping someone to understand a text" is not what normal people mean by it. There's a very famous anecdote (probably false) about Einstein.

A journalist asked him 'Can you explain the Theory of Relativity to me?'.

Einstein replied: 'Can you tell me how to fry an egg?'

The journalist looked at him in surprise and said: 'Well, yes, I can.'

To which Einstein replied: 'Well, then do it, but imagining that I do not know what an egg is... Nor a frying pan, nor oil, nor fire.'

Basically most commentaries will explain the Theory of Relativity but they will assume you have all the background knowledge (and language skills) necessary to understand their explanations. There's very few beginner friendly commentaries like Cameron's that will actually help you understand the Greek text at the most fundamental and basic level.

For instance Gomme's five volume Historical Commentary on Thucydides is the reference to go but he assumes that you understand the text perfectly and without fail, he's just providing context. Hornblower's three volume Commentary on Thucydides is also focused on historical and literary interpretation, plus since he assumes that his readers don't know Greek (and have no intention of learning it) he provides translations instead of help in understanding difficult passages (a very common defect in the most recent books, and another reason to give more credit to older books).

Again, Dover's commentaries to books VI and VII are excellent and very useful if you already are at an advanced or at least upper-intermediate level of Greek. The same thing can be said about Canfora's commentary to the Melian dialogue (Tucidide e l'imperio. La presa di Melo).

My suggestion for the most student friendly commentary would be the old Classen & Steup commentary (look in the resources page I mentioned) but it's in German, the next best thing is Arnold's. There are a couple of commentaries in English based on Classen & Steup listed in the resources page that should also be helpful.

Although not a commentary, Kagan's New History of the Peloponessian War is excellent and I wholeheartedly recommend it. You can borrow an abridged edition on Archive.org.
5 x
Omnis lingua usu potius discitur quam praeceptis, id est audiendo, legendo, relegendo, imitationem manu et lingua temptando quam creberrime. – Iohannes Amos Comenius

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 4806

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:40 am

The clearest way I can put it is that I was looking for what Budé seemed to promise, but that was so far back I don't remember what they promised :D . Besides, another reading of Thucydides has been put on hold indefinitely, but I do appreciate the various references you have provided me and other LLORG members who may read this post.
Even better for my current day to day purposes were references via Reddit to Zintz, to Vocabulaire grec, commenté et sur textes by Victor Fontoynont (there's an edition at archive.org of an older version of this) and to Manual de Adquisición de Vocabulario Griego Antiguo by Martha Cecilia Jaime González, coordinator. I've been backing water a bit studying ancient Greek in order to consolidate my understanding of all the words on the DCC Greek Basic 500 vocabulary and finding samples for them. The work of Fontoynont and González have such samples, if not necesarily exactly all the DCC words since I've only dipped my toes in at the moment, and they are light years ahead of that plain little list from DCC. As for Zintz, I've had a chance only to flip through a few pdf pages of Zintz, but I like some of the features that I saw.
0 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

User avatar
MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
x 4806

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:44 pm

I should say that the fellow's name is Zuntz, not Zintz. :(
0 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

lichtrausch
Blue Belt
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:21 pm
Languages: English (N), German, Japanese, Mandarin, Korean
x 1373

Re: Classical Languages - Study Group

Postby lichtrausch » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:57 pm

Classics majors at Princeton University will no longer be required to learn Latin or Greek

"The classics department at Princeton University recently decided that the idea that classics majors ought to know Latin or Greek has been a mistake. Old-fashioned, perhaps. Until now, undergrads who wanted to major in the study of classical texts needed to come into the concentration with at least an intermediate level of Latin or Greek. But those students will no longer even have to learn either language to receive a degree in classics."
4 x


Return to “Study Groups”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests