English Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
raymondaliasapollyon
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:07 am
Languages: Mandarin (native)
English (intermediate) and German (basic)

Re: English Study Group

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:08 pm

Le Baron wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:Hello,

Could the "Hitting Mary" be okay in the following context?

John had a grudge against Mary. One day, he came on upon her and her boyfriend sitting in the park. Hitting Mary on the head, he then ran away.

I'd appreciate your help.

Not really, the sentence is nonsensical...unless you add 'then' to 'he ran away' as I did above.


Thank you. I'm investigating when a simple Ving form can replace the "having + past participle" to express a sequence of events. Michael Swan's Practical English Usage has the following example:

Putting down the newspaper, I walked over to the window. (= After I put down ...)

Here, "Putting" is used instead of "Having put."

You added "then" to my example with "hitting." If "Giving her a punch on the head" had been used, would you also have added "then"?

Giving Mary a punch on the head, he ran away.
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9315

Re: English Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:18 pm

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:You added "then" to my example with "hitting." If "Giving her a punch on the head" had been used, would you also have added "then"?

Giving Mary a punch on the head, he ran away.

Yes, I would still have added it. It's all a matter of style though.
0 x

raymondaliasapollyon
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:07 am
Languages: Mandarin (native)
English (intermediate) and German (basic)

Re: English Study Group

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:07 pm

Le Baron wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:You added "then" to my example with "hitting." If "Giving her a punch on the head" had been used, would you also have added "then"?

Giving Mary a punch on the head, he ran away.

Yes, I would still have added it. It's all a matter of style though.


Would you also use "then" with the "Putting down" example?

By the way, I'm examining the hypothesis that the use of a simple Ving form (rather than "having + past participle) to express an earlier event is only possible with punctual verbs (verbs that express instantaneous events). The "putting down" sentence is such an example.
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9315

Re: English Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:41 pm

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:Would you also use "then" with the "Putting down" example?

Probably not consistently. I can see that sentence staying as it is.

What you're using can arise in different participles. It's called the 'dangling participle' and is part of both the present participle and also past participle (and probably others, I'm not a grammarian so I don't know). Usually the subject is not mentioned in the first clause (or has been mentioned previously or is assumed from previous context) and so the verb in the past tense refers to another object. In your case it is all to do with the subject.

I don't think the name you give of 'Ving form' is accurate though. There are many ways of forming this type of construction with all types of verbs and the following aren't different:

'Told to forget the idea, the project just fizzled.'
'The issue resolved, no further meetings took place.'
'Asked why he'd not done it, he had no answer.'

Or closer to your sentences:

'Working quickly, he finished everything within the hour.'

There are times in narrative when you need to specify events following rather than just leaving them to interpretation and them appearing to be simultaneous events:

'Having fought his way through the crowd, he then boarded the train' vs 'fighting his way through the crowd, he boarded the train'.

In some scenarios I'd consider the second both more vague and a poor style choice. Even though we know he know he can't be fighting his way through a crowd and boarding a train at the same time.
2 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4875

Re: English Study Group

Postby smallwhite » Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:03 am

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:I'm investigating when a simple Ving form can replace the "having + past participle" to express a sequence of events. ...

Putting down the newspaper, I walked over to the window. (= After I put down ...)

It was probably context that told you the newspaper was put down before I started walking.
Had the sentence been
Putting on my hat, I walked over to the door.
, you'd probably imagine simultaneous action?
1 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

raymondaliasapollyon
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:07 am
Languages: Mandarin (native)
English (intermediate) and German (basic)

Re: English Study Group

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:12 am

smallwhite wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:I'm investigating when a simple Ving form can replace the "having + past participle" to express a sequence of events. ...

Putting down the newspaper, I walked over to the window. (= After I put down ...)

It was probably context that told you the newspaper was put down before I started walking.
Had the sentence been
Putting on my hat, I walked over to the door.
, you'd probably imagine simultaneous action?


The matter has to do with Aktionsart, a German term denoting a linguistic category.

"fight his way through a crowd" is a durative predicate in that it describes an event that lasts some time, whereas "put down a newspaper" is a punctual predicate in that it describes an instantaneous event. It seems that the use of a simple Ving form to express a sequence of events requires the predicate to be punctual; for durative predicates to express a sequence of events, a "Having + vpp" has to be used.

Generally, it'd be too complicated to involve linguistics in language learning, but Aktionsart is too relevant to this particular phemonenon to be ignored.
0 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4875

Re: English Study Group

Postby smallwhite » Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:04 am

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
raymondaliasapollyon wrote:I'm investigating when a simple Ving form can replace the "having + past participle" to express a sequence of events. ...

Putting down the newspaper, I walked over to the window. (= After I put down ...)

It was probably context that told you the newspaper was put down before I started walking.
Had the sentence been
Putting on my hat, I walked over to the door.
, you'd probably imagine simultaneous action?


The matter has to do with Aktionsart, a German term denoting a linguistic category.

"fight his way through a crowd" is a durative predicate in that it describes an event that lasts some time, whereas "put down a newspaper" is a punctual predicate in that it describes an instantaneous event. It seems that the use of a simple Ving form to express a sequence of events requires the predicate to be punctual; for durative predicates to express a sequence of events, a "Having + vpp" has to be used.

Generally, it'd be too complicated to involve linguistics in language learning, but Aktionsart is too relevant to this particular phemonenon to be ignored.

We could be talking about the same thing, with me calling it context and you calling it by its linguistic name.

You probably need the punctual vs durative in both the 1st verb and the 2nd to align to convey sequence unambiguously. And if sequence is still ambiguous then it's context that's needed afterall.

Running out of ideas, I'll just leave you guys the URL Wikipedia - Dangling modifier.
1 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

Kraut
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:37 pm
Languages: German (N)
French (C)
English (C)
Spanish (A2)
Lithuanian
x 3196

Re: English Study Group

Postby Kraut » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:28 am

A history of English

Míša Hejná; George Walkden

Where does today’s English language come from? This book takes its readers on a journey back in time, from present-day varieties to the Old English of Beowulf and beyond. Written for students with little or no background in linguistics, and reflecting the latest scholarship, it showcases the variation and change present throughout the history of English, and includes numerous exercises and sample texts for every period.

The reverse-chronological approach taken by this book sets it apart from all existing textbooks of the last fifty years. Innovative features also include its focus on variation, multilingualism and language contact, its use of texts from outside the literary canon, and its inclusion of case studies from syntax, sociophonetics and historical pragmatics.#


https://zenodo.org/record/6560337#.Y4lM5uGZN-9
PDF
Creative Commons
1 x

raymondaliasapollyon
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:07 am
Languages: Mandarin (native)
English (intermediate) and German (basic)

Re: English Study Group

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:49 am

Hi.

If someone, say Peter, utters the following sentences, can we infer that he believes that the factory is going to close down?

a. "John talked about the fact that the factory is going to close down."
b. "John didn't talk about the fact that the factory is going to close down."

I'd appreciate your help.
0 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9315

Re: English Study Group

Postby Le Baron » Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:33 pm

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:Hi.

If someone, say Peter, utters the following sentences, can we infer that he believes that the factory is going to close down?

a. "John talked about the fact that the factory is going to close down."
b. "John didn't talk about the fact that the factory is going to close down."

I'd appreciate your help.

I like it. The key word is 'fact'. In example a he explicitly knows it, exemplified by his talking about it. In example b we can only assume that he either knows it, but doesn't want to talk about it; or that we know it's true the factory will close, but he doesn't know about it.
0 x


Return to “Study Groups”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests