Basque Group 2017

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
User avatar
Saim
Orange Belt
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:14 pm
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Languages: N: English (AU)
C2: Catalan, Spanish, Serbian
C1: Polish
B2: Urdu, Hebrew, Punjabi
B1 (some rusty): Hungarian, Galician, Portuguese, Italian, Asturian-Leonese, Occitan, Dutch, French
A2/1: Slovene, Russian, Ukrainian, Esperanto, Turkish, Basque, Levantine Arabic
x 227

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby Saim » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:46 pm

Systematiker wrote:A question for those who know more than I: the nor-nori-nork explanations are all just trying to get at absolutive, dative, and ergative cases, right? Or did I miss something else important?


If I'm understanding your question correctly: yes, you're right. There's nothing else to it, Basques just tend to use interrogative pronouns to talk about cases rather than their names.
2 x

crush
Orange Belt
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:35 pm
Languages: :
Speak:
--English, Spanish, Mandarin
Study:
--Basque, Cantonese, Afrikaans
x 126

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby crush » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:02 pm

Systematiker wrote:A question for those who know more than I: the nor-nori-nork explanations are all just trying to get at absolutive, dative, and ergative cases, right? Or did I miss something else important?

(...added your log, anyone else who wants me to add their log just let me know!)

Nor is the object of transitive verbs, nori is the indirect object, and nork is the subject (ergative). Nor is the nor case (ie without a special ending), nork is the nork case (ergative, -k ending), and nori is the nori case (dative, generally some form of an -i ending). So there are four types of verbs:
NOR (etorri naiz), NOR-NORI (gustatzen zait), NOR-NORK (maite zaitut), and NOR-NORI-NORK (esan dizut)

NOR verbs are just your standard intransitive verbs (go, come, etc.). It can also be used to make a verb passive (esan du = he/she/it said, esan da = it was said).

NOR-NORI verbs are verbs like... well, it's easier to compare to Spanish.
- Me gusta = gustatzen zait. Here, zai shows us a singular subject and the -t shows us the dative object (to me).
- Te parecen = iruditzen zaizkizu. zaizki- shows us that the subject is plural (-zki- often shows up to mark third person plural) and -zu tells us the indirect object: to you.

They are verbs with no direct object, only a subject and dative/indirect object.

NOR-NORK are your standard transitive verbs. They have a direct object (NOR) and a subject (NORK). The verb tells you who the recipient of the action is in addition to who is doing the action. Take for example:
Ikusi nauzu - you saw me. nau- refers to NI, and -zu refers to ZUK.
Esan ditut - I said (them). ditu- refers to HAIEK (the nor form, ie. direct object) and -t refers to NIK.

And lastly...
NOR-NORI-NORK is a verb with a subject, direct object, and indirect object. Note that the direct object can only be third person singular or plural, so there's no telling your slaves eg. "I sold you to her", at least not using NOR-NORI-NORK!
Eman dizki-zu-t - I gave them to you.
Esan di-da-te - They told (it to) me.

Learning all these forms (and the few synthetic verbs) will likely constitute the bulk of your Basque learning :P Fortunately they are very regular and you will start to see the patterns between/within them.

I use this chart to help me out when typing online:
Image

EDIT:
Saim wrote:Basques just tend to use interrogative pronouns to talk about cases rather than their names.

And what Saim was saying is that in Basque they generally say NOR (who) to refer to the absolutive, NON (where) to refer to the enessive, NOREN (whose) to refer to the genitive, NORA (to where) to refer to the allative, and so on. It's generally easier to follow since nor also takes those case endings: nor, non, nongo, nondik, noren, nora, nori, norekin, norentzat, etc. and then there's a couple formed from zer (what) like zerez, zertara/zertarako, ...
3 x

User avatar
Systematiker
Green Belt
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 6:09 pm
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA, FRA (~C1->C2); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (B2); GRC (B2); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (B1); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); GLA (~A1); CYM (~A1); EUS (A0); FIN (A0). Next: SYC, CLD, GLG, ARA, ANG, ITA, ISL, SWA, AFR, RON, Siebenbürger Sächsich.
*averaged for high receptive skill
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2764
x 901

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby Systematiker » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:26 am

Complicated explanation aside, I would also like to report that I had my first conversation in Basque today over SMS. It only went a few exchanges before I exhausted my ability, but those few went well. :D
5 x

crush
Orange Belt
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:35 pm
Languages: :
Speak:
--English, Spanish, Mandarin
Study:
--Basque, Cantonese, Afrikaans
x 126

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby crush » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:58 am

Ederki! Orain esan dezakezu "euskalduna naiz, eta harro nago!" ;)

Zorionak on your first conversation, it's the best way to really get all those verb forms to stick!

EDIT: Btw, i've got a couple flashcard decks that i've put together over the years, not sure if anyone's interested. For example, i put all the words from "The Basque Language" (a little over 1,000 words) on Memrise. I'm also putting together a set of sentences (English -> Basque) organized by chapter and based off the vocab and grammar in each chapter for my partner to review. We've only gone up to unit six, but i can share that Anki deck here as well as we go along. And lastly, i've got a Subs2SRS deck (sans audio, can't find any matching Basque subtitles/audio) of Breaking Bad that i've been using for myself. I've learned many useful phrases, for example "Ez naiz trafikatzaile bat." Another one i use particularly often is "Utziguzu droga prestatzen!"
1 x

crush
Orange Belt
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:35 pm
Languages: :
Speak:
--English, Spanish, Mandarin
Study:
--Basque, Cantonese, Afrikaans
x 126

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby crush » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:05 pm

Going to Guangzhou tomorrow to visit my partner and their family over Spring Festival (and likely get in a good deal of Cantonese practice), but before i go i'd like to leave everyone with a few more songs (just realized i've got Urko's records playing as i write this ;) ):
Su Ta Gar - Jo ta ke: start off with one of the most famous Basque metal groups (and their most famous song)


Su Ta Gar - Bazoaz: their style's changed a bit over the years, this is a more radio-rock sort of song (and a love song at that, well, about having lost someone you loved)


Urtz - Kaixo: another rather famous Basque rock band. While searching for this song on Youtube i came across another version of it by Go!azen as a learning resource :P


Kauta - Nostalgia:


I actually hadn't seen the Go!azen site before but it looks like it could be pretty useful. Here's the link if anyone else wants to check it out:
http://www.eitb.eus/eu/telebista/programak/goazen/
The episodes are here:
http://www.eitb.eus/eu/telebista/progra ... apituluak/
Haven't watched anything yet, but will do so when i get back :D

Also updated the first post.

EDIT:
Systematiker wrote:Complicated explanation aside, I would also like to report that I had my first conversation in Basque today over SMS. It only went a few exchanges before I exhausted my ability, but those few went well. :D

Just wanted to share a song that i thought you might enjoy ;)
Gozategi - Nor-nori-nork:

Eusko Jaurlaritzak dio - the Basque government says (esan also has a synthetic conjugation)
dirurik ez dagoela - that there isn't any money
baina zer kasualitate - but what a coincidence
gurea falta zaiela. - they need ours (les hace falta)

Baina, laister ikusiko dute, joder - but soon they'll see, joder
potrotaraino gaudela, joder - that we're fed up (hasta los "huevos" :P)
potrotaraino gaude. - we're fed up.

Nor-nori-nork
baldintza ta subjuntibo, joder - conditional and subjunctive, joder
baldintza ta subjuntibo, joder - conditional and subjunctive, joder
baldintza badakigu. - we know the condition

Ertzainek erosi dute - the Ertzainak (Basque police) have bought
Kristoren helikopterua - a huge helicopter
baina zerta(ra)ko nahi dute - but what do they need
holako aparatua. - a device like that for?

Nor-nori-nork
baldintza ta subjuntibo, joder - conditional and subjunctive, joder
baldintza ta subjuntibo, joder - conditional and subjunctive, joder
baldintza badakigu. - we know the condition

One of the folks in the comments explains:
Se refiere a que siempre hablan de las condiciones, pero nunca de lo que nos tienen que dar después de que cumplamos dichas condiciones.
2 x

User avatar
Expugnator
Blue Belt
Posts: 929
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:45 pm
Location: Belo Horizonte
Languages: Native Brazilian Portuguese#advanced fluency English, French, Papiamento#basic fluency Italian, Norwegian#intermediate German, Georgian and Chinese (Mandarin)#basic Russian, Estonian#just started Greek (Modern)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5221
x 1536

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby Expugnator » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:47 pm

crush wrote:Nor is the object of transitive verbs, nori is the indirect object, and nork is the subject (ergative). Nor is the nor case (ie without a special ending), nork is the nork case (ergative, -k ending), and nori is the nori case (dative, generally some form of an -i ending). So there are four types of verbs:
NOR (etorri naiz), NOR-NORI (gustatzen zait), NOR-NORK (maite zaitut), and NOR-NORI-NORK (esan dizut)

NOR verbs are just your standard intransitive verbs (go, come, etc.). It can also be used to make a verb passive (esan du = he/she/it said, esan da = it was said).

NOR-NORI verbs are verbs like... well, it's easier to compare to Spanish.
- Me gusta = gustatzen zait. Here, zai shows us a singular subject and the -t shows us the dative object (to me).
- Te parecen = iruditzen zaizkizu. zaizki- shows us that the subject is plural (-zki- often shows up to mark third person plural) and -zu tells us the indirect object: to you.

They are verbs with no direct object, only a subject and dative/indirect object.

NOR-NORK are your standard transitive verbs. They have a direct object (NOR) and a subject (NORK). The verb tells you who the recipient of the action is in addition to who is doing the action. Take for example:
Ikusi nauzu - you saw me. nau- refers to NI, and -zu refers to ZUK.
Esan ditut - I said (them). ditu- refers to HAIEK (the nor form, ie. direct object) and -t refers to NIK.

And lastly...
NOR-NORI-NORK is a verb with a subject, direct object, and indirect object. Note that the direct object can only be third person singular or plural, so there's no telling your slaves eg. "I sold you to her", at least not using NOR-NORI-NORK!
Eman dizki-zu-t - I gave them to you.
Esan di-da-te - They told (it to) me.



All these notions are surprisingly similar to Georgian. Georgian grammarians could also get going with a straightfoward labelling of their verb categories (they just call them I, II, III and IV conjugations).

You did a great job here, crush. Basque is definitely a language I'd go for when I'll be aiming for a grammar challenge while remaining comfortable in the Latin script and a straightforward pronunciation, plus a good amount of adapted native materials for learning.
2 x
Corrections welcome for any language.

User avatar
Tillumadoguenirurm
Orange Belt
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 3:07 pm
Languages: Norwegian (N), English (B2 test), French (A-B), Spanish (A-B), Catalan (A-B), Irish (A1), Basque (A1)
x 160

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby Tillumadoguenirurm » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:00 pm

*Pushes Dreadnought button*

What the cowhide, I'm in.







Meanies.
2 x

User avatar
Systematiker
Green Belt
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 6:09 pm
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA, FRA (~C1->C2); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (B2); GRC (B2); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (B1); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); GLA (~A1); CYM (~A1); EUS (A0); FIN (A0). Next: SYC, CLD, GLG, ARA, ANG, ITA, ISL, SWA, AFR, RON, Siebenbürger Sächsich.
*averaged for high receptive skill
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2764
x 901

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby Systematiker » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:33 pm

Glad you're in!

I've been plugging along, after switching last week to Gorka+Assimil, and I get why some people say the Assimil course gets real hard real fast. I'm only on lesson 6, and I'm starting to struggle. I have kept up my SRS stuff, though, so what I do know I know pretty well. I'm trying to stay Spanish-vector, but crush's memrise course is tempting me...
1 x

crush
Orange Belt
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:35 pm
Languages: :
Speak:
--English, Spanish, Mandarin
Study:
--Basque, Cantonese, Afrikaans
x 126

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby crush » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:34 am

Systematiker wrote:I'm trying to stay Spanish-vector, but crush's memrise course is tempting me...

Seriously, Alan King's The Basque Language is absolutely worth getting, I've been taking pictures of it with my phone and cleaning it up with Gimp for my partner to have on their phone as we go along (unfortunately it's hard to find a copy in China), I'd be happy to pass what I've done (I think up to unit twelve of forty) off to you or anyone else unsure about whether it's worth getting. I'm also putting together an Anki deck of exercises (English to Basque translation exercises) but I could easily translate them to Spanish. A Basque friend has even offered to record all the sentences for me.

The Assimil course IS tough, and also unfortunately far too short. If you want to stick with Spanish, the Bakarka courses are very highly rated though I've never used them. Gorka's course is nice, but it too throws a lot at you once you start getting into the thick of the verbs.

I'm hoping to head to the Basque Country this summer, so hopefully then I'll be able to give a more comprehensive list of learning materials available from a Spanish base.
Expugnator wrote:All these notions are surprisingly similar to Georgian. Georgian grammarians could also get going with a straightfoward labelling of their verb categories (they just call them I, II, III and IV conjugations).

You did a great job here, crush. Basque is definitely a language I'd go for when I'll be aiming for a grammar challenge while remaining comfortable in the Latin script and a straightforward pronunciation, plus a good amount of adapted native materials for learning.
Yeah, Basque pronunciation is pretty simple. The verb system is also very logical and regular, there are patterns hidden in there, they're just a lot different from what we're used to. The stem in a Basque verb is often the middle, whereas in most languages I've studied it's the beginning. So at first the conjugation of izan seems completely random:
naiz
da
gara
zara
zarete
dira
because we're looking at the end of the verb to tell us the special information. But when you compare it to other synthetic verbs, say joan (noa, doa, goaz, zoaz, zoazte, doaz) or etorri (nator, dator, gatoz, zatoz, zatozte, datoz) you can see where the patterns begin to emerge. And in Basque nearly all verbs are formed with auxiliary verbs, so you don't need to learn how to conjugate them. And most synthetic verbs are NOR verbs which don't need to convey any extra information apart from the subject (and they only exist in present and past forms, other tenses make use of auxiliary verbs as well). And the flexibility of verbs (they can be nominalized and even have cases added to them) makes them even more interesting.

Anyway, I'm trying to put together some more tools and resources to make learning Basque easier, I should have a bit more time soon to focus on them a bit more.
5 x

crush
Orange Belt
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:35 pm
Languages: :
Speak:
--English, Spanish, Mandarin
Study:
--Basque, Cantonese, Afrikaans
x 126

Re: Basque Group 2017

Postby crush » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:42 am

Time for some more Basque music :D

Hesia - Hemen nago


Go!azen - Euskararen Txantxangorria (a song for the Go!azen show i shared last week, txantxangorri is a robin (the bird))


Iheskide - Libre (some Basque punk, they used to be known as 'Ihesbide', i'm not sure which name they go by now)


Itoiz - Lau teilatu


Norzzone - Artisaua (hip-hop)


I also grouped the songs in the first post into approximate music styles so it's easier to find music you're interested in.
0 x


Return to “Study Groups”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest