German group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
moo
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Re: German group

Postby moo » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:15 pm

vogeltje wrote:The TV people use the subjunctive in reported speech, but I don't think that people use it normally.

so your example Er hat gesagt, er habe den Kuchen gegessen would be TV German, and

Er hat gesagt, dass er den Kuchen gegessen hatte would be non-TV German

or maybe I'm wrong, I didn't learn these officially.



You are right in one way but mine would be right in the sense that you can use it in speech to convey doubt , like if i said that sentence , it would kinda translate you doubting he was telling the truth. That is my take on it
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Doitsujin
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Re: German group

Postby Doitsujin » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:42 pm

moo wrote:You are right in one way but mine would be right in the sense that you can use it in speech to convey doubt , like if i said that sentence , it would kinda translate you doubting he was telling the truth. That is my take on it
Actually, vogeltje, was right: Konjunktiv I is primarily used for reported speech. If you want to express doubt, you'll have to use Konjunktiv II, at least in formal German.
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moo
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Re: German group

Postby moo » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:48 pm

Doitsujin wrote:
moo wrote:You are right in one way but mine would be right in the sense that you can use it in speech to convey doubt , like if i said that sentence , it would kinda translate you doubting he was telling the truth. That is my take on it
Actually, vogeltje, was right: Konjunktiv I is primarily used for reported speech. If you want to express doubt, you'll have to use Konjunktiv II, at least in formal German.


Thanks guys , I'm learning so much here!
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Systematiker
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Re: German group

Postby Systematiker » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:21 am

In the south, you'll often find Konjunktiv II where Konjunktiv I belongs, at least in spoken language; connected to this, it's been my experience that bothering to use Konjunktiv I in a sentence like moo's indicates that the speaker is merely reporting speech, not the state of affairs (yeah, I know, it's for reported speech, right, but what I'm saying is that in my experience, if one bothers to use it in a spoken exchange [apart from certain specific situations] it stands out enough to convey the distinction between what the fellow who ate the cake said and whether or not the cake has been eaten. It's not doubt, precisely, but it certainly makes one take notice in a way that it wouldn't in, say, the newspaper).
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vogeltje
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I can speak: Dutch, German, English, Spanish and understand Italian, Portuguese, Wallonian, Afrikaans, but not always correctly.
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Re: German group

Postby vogeltje » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:03 am

I don't know which things are which Konjunktiv, I know the name Konjunktiv 1 and II of course, but I mean I don't know which structures are in each one.

moo's reported speech Er hat gesagt, er habe den Kuchen gegessen, which I associate with the TV, feels like an assertion, so some doubt because it's not like a maths lesson like 2+2=4, but not strong enough to say that the subjunctive there adds uncertainty. I've never used this construction, only heard it.

My versions (**not sure that they're correct in German or English, if you want to correct my sentences, it would be helpful, thanks**):

Er hat gesagt, dass er den Kuchen gegessen hatte
(he said that he had eaten the cake)

Er hat gesagt, dass er den Kuchen gegessen hätte
(he said that he would have eaten the cake)

Er hat gesagt, dass er den Kuchen essen würde
(he said that he would eat the cake)

where is this cake?? I've found it!! you can have some chocolate cake, but you better be quick before he arrives, he has planned to eat the cake :lol: -->

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Theodisce
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Re: German group

Postby Theodisce » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:07 pm

It took me several months of immersion to switch from the "er sagte, dass er..." to the "er sagte, er habe..." type of sentences in my writing. Other interesting tiny grammatical item I picked up is the "Er soll die Frau ermordet haben" type of sentence, which expresses the uncertainty.
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vogeltje
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I can speak: Dutch, German, English, Spanish and understand Italian, Portuguese, Wallonian, Afrikaans, but not always correctly.
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Re: German group

Postby vogeltje » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:49 pm

Doitsujin wrote:
moo wrote:You are right in one way but mine would be right in the sense that you can use it in speech to convey doubt , like if i said that sentence , it would kinda translate you doubting he was telling the truth. That is my take on it
Actually, vogeltje, was right: Konjunktiv I is primarily used for reported speech. If you want to express doubt, you'll have to use Konjunktiv II, at least in formal German.


So do you mean that my comment was rigth becuase I said that it didn't express doubt? (I think it's what was correct). and that it's a correct sentence, grammatically.

Which is the normal one not on German TV?

er hat gesagt, er habe ...
er hat gesagt, dass er...


I don't think that I've heard anyone say the first one, except on the TV, but:

Theodisce wrote:It took me several months of immersion to switch from the "er sagte, dass er..." to the "er sagte, er habe..." type of sentences in my writing. Other interesting tiny grammatical item I picked up is the "Er soll die Frau ermordet haben" type of sentence, which expresses the uncertainty.


so you mean that er sagte, dass er is not as good as er sagte, er habe?

I know your second example, and yes, this is uncertainty, and it's the same in Dutch:

Ger: Er soll die Frau ermordet haben
NL: hij zal de vrouw hebben vermoord or hij zou de vrouw hebben vermoord the first is less speculative and more a conclusion or assumption

I learnt German when I was 14 from two people, one was German and the other was a Belgian German. But of course since then, I've leanrd more and it's possible that they said the 'habe' version and I didn't notice.
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: 1 / 50 Spanish grammar
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Theodisce
Orange Belt
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:18 am
Location: Tybinga
Languages: Polish (native), speaks: English, Czech, German, Russian, French, Spanish. Writes in: Latin. Understands: Ancient Greek, Modern Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Slovak, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Serbian/Croatian. Studies for passive competence in: Dutch, Romanian, Slovene, Bulgarian
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1435
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Re: German group

Postby Theodisce » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:09 pm

vogeltje wrote:
Theodisce wrote:It took me several months of immersion to switch from the "er sagte, dass er..." to the "er sagte, er habe..." type of sentences in my writing. Other interesting tiny grammatical item I picked up is the "Er soll die Frau ermordet haben" type of sentence, which expresses the uncertainty.


so you mean that er sagte, dass er is not as good as er sagte, er habe?

I know your second example, and yes, this is uncertainty, and it's the same in Dutch:

Ger: Er soll die Frau ermordet haben
NL: hij zal de vrouw hebben vermoord or hij zou de vrouw hebben vermoord the first is less speculative and more a conclusion or assumption
.


I would not say that the version with dass is not as good as the other one, but I failed to express myself clearly enough. It took me some time because the version with dass has a precise equivalent in my native language and in that sense learning some new grammar was more demanding than just expressing my native patterns with other words. And I believe the version with the subjunctive is more bookish, which is not a value in and of itself.

The Dutch example is very interesting, thanks for sharing it!
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GER : 418 / 1000
SPA : 114 / 220
ITA : 122 / 330

moo
x 151

Re: German group

Postby moo » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:48 am

Doitsujin wrote:
moo wrote:You are right in one way but mine would be right in the sense that you can use it in speech to convey doubt , like if i said that sentence , it would kinda translate you doubting he was telling the truth. That is my take on it
Actually, vogeltje, was right: Konjunktiv I is primarily used for reported speech. If you want to express doubt, you'll have to use Konjunktiv II, at least in formal German.


It's use is fading in spoken German but you can still say it with the forms "er/ sie/ es" as I did, I've read, as these are different from the indicative. I never said anything about formal German.
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Doitsujin
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Re: German group

Postby Doitsujin » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:49 pm

vogeltje wrote:so you mean that er sagte, dass er is not as good as er sagte, er habe?
Both are perfectly acceptable, however, in formal German Konjunktiv I (er sagte, er habe) is preferred.

vogeltje wrote:So do you mean that my comment was rigth becuase I said that it didn't express doubt? (I think it's what was correct). and that it's a correct sentence, grammatically.
Both statements were correct, Konjunktiv I usually does not express doubt and is chiefly used for reported speech* in formal German, for example in newscasts. Your example sentence was also correct.

* Konjunktiv I can also be used for:

Wishes, e.g. "Friede sei mit dir." or "Lang lebe der König."
Impersonal imperatives, e.g. "Man koche den Ingwer in einem Topf mit Wasser..." (Mostly used in recipes.)

vogeltje wrote:Which is the normal one not on German TV?
er hat gesagt, er habe ...
er hat gesagt, dass er...
Konjunktiv I (present subjunctive) is rare, even among educated German speakers. I.e., you'll mostly hear: "er hat gesagt, dass er..."
BTW, doubt is often expressed with adjectives. For example, "er hat angeblich gesagt, dass er..."

Konjunktiv II (past subjunctive) is even rarer. Since the Konjunktiv II forms of regular verbs are identical with the imperfect/preterite/simple past forms, most German speakers prefer constructions with würde + infinitive.

E.g., "Ich würde gerne kommen." instead of "Ich käme gerne."

Fun fact: würde is actually the Konjunktiv II of werden.
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