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moo
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Re: German group

Postby moo » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:19 am

moo wrote: I mean for some reason stuff like "Er hat gesagt, er habe den Kuchen gegessen" is really hard for me to say. Sometimes , you know the rules and everything but putting it into practice is another story.




Doitsujin wrote:
moo wrote:You are right in one way but mine would be right in the sense that you can use it in speech to convey doubt , like if i said that sentence , it would kinda translate you doubting he was telling the truth. That is my take on it

Actually, vogeltje, was right: Konjunktiv I is primarily used for reported speech. If you want to express doubt, you'll have to use Konjunktiv II, at least in formal German.



Are you saying that this sentence is formal German? Sorry I'm confused as to what your logic here is. The doubt I see involved is that it would translate to meaning "He said he ate the cake (but the speaker doesn't know if he actually has") There's a subjective attitude here on the speakers part that brings doubt into it. It's not simply reported speech . It's the attitude of the speaker that makes this tense stand out.

I know I can use the example i gave in spoken German and maybe it's for reported speech in the news like you said but when speaking it brings with it a subjective attitude of the speaker which can bring doubt into it. That is what I meant by "doubt" .
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Josquin
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Re: German group

Postby Josquin » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:03 am

moo wrote:Are you saying that this sentence is formal German? Sorry I'm confused as to what your logic here is. The doubt I see involved is that it would translate to meaning "He said he ate the cake (but the speaker doesn't know if he actually has") There's a subjective attitude here on the speakers part that brings doubt into it. It's not simply reported speech . It's the attitude of the speaker that makes this tense stand out.

I know I can use the example i gave in spoken German and maybe it's for reported speech in the news like you said but when speaking it brings with it a subjective attitude of the speaker which can bring doubt into it. That is what I meant by "doubt" .

Doitsujin is right. A sentence using Konjunktiv I will always be formal German, as this tense is virtually never used in informal language. He's also right that Konjunktiv I does not indicate doubt. It simply marks reported speech. The kind of doubt you refer to is actually incertainty, which is inherent to reported speech.

If you simply report what someone says he or she has done you never know whether it's true. It has nothing to do with subjective attitude. This distinguishes the German Konjunktiv from the subjunctive in some Romance languages. The only thing Konjunktiv I expresses is that it's a reported fact instead of an actual fact that you have witnessed yourself. "Er sagt, er habe den Kuchen gegessen (aber ich weiß nicht, ob er es tatsächlich gemacht hat)".

If you want to express actual doubt that the person ate the cake, you need to use Konjunktiv II: "Er sagt, er hätte den Kuchen gegessen (aber ich glaube ihm nicht)." In informal language, you will always use either indicative or Konjunktiv II instead of Konjunktiv I though.
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moo
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Re: German group

Postby moo » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:14 am

Josquin wrote:
moo wrote:Are you saying that this sentence is formal German? Sorry I'm confused as to what your logic here is. The doubt I see involved is that it would translate to meaning "He said he ate the cake (but the speaker doesn't know if he actually has") There's a subjective attitude here on the speakers part that brings doubt into it. It's not simply reported speech . It's the attitude of the speaker that makes this tense stand out.

I know I can use the example i gave in spoken German and maybe it's for reported speech in the news like you said but when speaking it brings with it a subjective attitude of the speaker which can bring doubt into it. That is what I meant by "doubt" .

Doitsujin is right. A sentence using Konjunktiv I will always be formal German, as this tense is virtually never used in informal language. He's also right that Konjunktiv I does not indicate doubt. It simply marks reported speech. The kind of doubt you refer to is actually incertainty, which is inherent to reported speech.

If you simply report what someone says he or she has done you never know whether it's true. It has nothing to do with subjective attitude. This distinguishes the German Konjunktiv from the subjunctive in some Romance languages. The only thing Konjunktiv I expresses is that it's a reported fact instead of an actual fact that you have witnessed yourself. "Er sagt, er habe den Kuchen gegessen (aber ich weiß nicht, ob er es tatsächlich gemacht hat)".

If you want to express actual doubt that the person ate the cake, you need to use Konjunktiv II: "Er sagt, er hätte den Kuchen gegessen (aber ich glaube ihm nicht)." In informal language, you will always use either indicative or Konjunktiv II instead of Konjunktiv I though.


Then why does Practice Makes Perfect say;

The verb tenses you have studied so far have been in the indicative
mood. The indicative mood expresses fact or reality.
Ich gehe in die Schule. I am going to school.
The subjunctive mood, on the other hand, indicates a subjective
attitude on the part of the speaker and shows uncertainty, possibility,
doubt, wish, or desire.
Er sagt, er gehe in die Schule. He says he is going to school.
He says he is going, though he may not go. When using the subjunctive
in indirect discourse, the speaker indicates that he or she
doesn’t take responsibility for the accuracy of what is being said.

???
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Josquin
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Re: German group

Postby Josquin » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:33 am

moo wrote:Then why does Practice Makes Perfect say;

The verb tenses you have studied so far have been in the indicative
mood. The indicative mood expresses fact or reality.
Ich gehe in die Schule. I am going to school.
The subjunctive mood, on the other hand, indicates a subjective
attitude on the part of the speaker and shows uncertainty, possibility,
doubt, wish, or desire.
Er sagt, er gehe in die Schule. He says he is going to school.
He says he is going, though he may not go. When using the subjunctive
in indirect discourse, the speaker indicates that he or she
doesn’t take responsibility for the accuracy of what is being said.

???

This you would need to ask the authors of Practice Makes Perfect. While the description above isn't wrong, it's not absolutely accurate either. Also, it's not clear if they're talking about the Konjunktiv as a whole (i.e. Konjunktiv I+II) or only Konjunktiv I, because Konjunktiv II does have this notion of subjectivity, irreality, and doubt.

So, to be honest, I don't really see a contradiction to what we've been saying here.
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Doitsujin
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Re: German group

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:20 pm

moo wrote:I mean for some reason stuff like "Er hat gesagt, er habe den Kuchen gegessen" is really hard for me to say.

It's hard for many Germans, too. However, as I've already explained, you don't actually have to use Konjunktiv I, unless you need to write formal German or need to transform direct speech into reported speech in a German grammar test.

moo wrote:Are you saying that this sentence is formal German?

If you're referring to "Er hat gesagt, er habe den Kuchen gegessen" then yes that sentence is formal German. Most Germans would say "Er hat gesagt, dass er den Kuchen gegessen hat." Of course, you might argue that the speaker doesn't really know whether the other person actually ate the cake, but it doesn't matter in this case, because the main purpose of Konjunktiv I in this construction is to indicate the fact that it's a reported speech statement.
To give you another example, if a defendant proclaimed "Ich bin unschuldig." a reporter might later write in an article "Der Angeklagte sagte er sei unschuldig.", which is a matter of fact statement. If the reporter actually witnessed the defendant committing the crime, all s/he could do is pick a different verb/idiom that expressed a shade of doubt. E.g., "Der Angeklagte behauptete frech/fest // schwor *Stein und Bein er sei unschuldig." But s/he'd still have to use Konjunktiv I in formal writing.

*Stein und Bein schwören = to swear blind // up and down

moo wrote:Sorry I'm confused as to what your logic here is.

This has nothing to do with logic. Konjunktiv I is predominatly used for reported speech in formal German. If you want to express doubt with a German subjunctive construction, you'll need to use Konjunktiv II.

Generally speaking, if you want to express doubt, you could:

a) Use adjectives such as angeblich:

Angeblich hat er gesagt, dass er den Kuchen gegessen hat.

b) Use Konjunktiv II:

Er hat gesagt, er hätte den Kuchen gegessen.

c) Use verbs of doubt such as bezweifeln:

Ich bezweifle, dass er den Kuchen gegessen hat.
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vogeltje
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Re: German group

Postby vogeltje » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:35 pm

Theodisce wrote:
The Dutch example is very interesting, thanks for sharing it!


I would be happy to give more Ducth examples, if you want. German and Ducth are so similar, but Ducth is more simple becuase it hasn't got cases. :)

For me, Ducth feels like chatty German, and German is Dutch's posh Dad :lol:
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vogeltje
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Re: German group

Postby vogeltje » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:52 pm

Doitsujin wrote:
vogeltje wrote:so you mean that er sagte, dass er is not as good as er sagte, er habe?
Both are perfectly acceptable, however, in formal German Konjunktiv I (er sagte, er habe) is preferred.

vogeltje wrote:So do you mean that my comment was rigth becuase I said that it didn't express doubt? (I think it's what was correct). and that it's a correct sentence, grammatically.
Both statements were correct, Konjunktiv I usually does not express doubt and is chiefly used for reported speech* in formal German, for example in newscasts. Your example sentence was also correct.

* Konjunktiv I can also be used for:

Wishes, e.g. "Friede sei mit dir." or "Lang lebe der König."
Impersonal imperatives, e.g. "Man koche den Ingwer in einem Topf mit Wasser..." (Mostly used in recipes.)

vogeltje wrote:Which is the normal one not on German TV?
er hat gesagt, er habe ...
er hat gesagt, dass er...
Konjunktiv I (present subjunctive) is rare, even among educated German speakers. I.e., you'll mostly hear: "er hat gesagt, dass er..."
BTW, doubt is often expressed with adjectives. For example, "er hat angeblich gesagt, dass er..."

Konjunktiv II (past subjunctive) is even rarer. Since the Konjunktiv II forms of regular verbs are identical with the imperfect/preterite/simple past forms, most German speakers prefer constructions with würde + infinitive.

E.g., "Ich würde gerne kommen." instead of "Ich käme gerne."

Fun fact: würde is actually the Konjunktiv II of werden.


Thank you very much for this great explanation.

Everything is what I had thought, except for the recipe. In the recipe I thought that it would be:

Koch den Ingwer ...

the version you'ev written seems extremely formal like you are explaining the recipe to the Royal Family or the butler exaplins it to his boss who had a delicious meal and wanted to know how they had made it :lol:

"friede sei mit dir" sounds what I thought as well. I was suprised, becuase I thought that English hadn't got a subjonctive, but in church they say "peace be with you"

For Theodisce:

Würde is different in Dutch, they use zou:

D Ich würde gerne vorbeikommen
NL Ik zou graag langs komen

D Ich würde lieber Schokolade essen
NL Ik zou liever chocolade eten

zou is from zullen which seems like English woudl from will.
Last edited by vogeltje on Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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vogeltje
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Re: German group

Postby vogeltje » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:56 pm

moo wrote:Then why does Practice Makes Perfect say;

The verb tenses you have studied so far have been in the indicative
mood. The indicative mood expresses fact or reality.
Ich gehe in die Schule. I am going to school.
The subjunctive mood, on the other hand, indicates a subjective
attitude on the part of the speaker and shows uncertainty, possibility,
doubt, wish, or desire.
Er sagt, er gehe in die Schule. He says he is going to school.
He says he is going, though he may not go. When using the subjunctive
in indirect discourse, the speaker indicates that he or she
doesn’t take responsibility for the accuracy of what is being said.

???


Hi moo

where are you? are you ok?
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Doitsujin
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Re: German group

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:28 pm

vogeltje wrote:Everything is what I had thought, except for the recipe. In the recipe I thought that it would be:

Koch den Ingwer ...

the version you've written seems extremely formal like you are explaining the recipe to the Royal Family or the butler exaplins it to his boss who had a delicious meal and wanted to know how they had made it :lol:
It's not formal at all, it's just a bit old-fashioned. If you search old German recipe books, you'll find this pattern a lot.

BTW, in modern recipe books, authors usually use:

a) infinitive constructions:

Den Ingwer in einem Topf mit Wasser kochen...

b) the dynamic passive (Vorgangspassiv/Handlungspassiv):

Der Ingwer wird in einem Topf mit Wasser gekocht...

(The regular imperative forms are rarely used in recipes.)
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vogeltje
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Re: German group

Postby vogeltje » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:13 pm

Doitsujin wrote:
vogeltje wrote:Everything is what I had thought, except for the recipe. In the recipe I thought that it would be:

Koch den Ingwer ...

the version you've written seems extremely formal like you are explaining the recipe to the Royal Family or the butler exaplins it to his boss who had a delicious meal and wanted to know how they had made it :lol:
It's not formal at all, it's just a bit old-fashioned. If you search old German recipe books, you'll find this pattern a lot.

BTW, in modern recipe books, authors usually use:

a) infinitive constructions:

Den Ingwer in einem Topf mit Wasser kochen...

b) the dynamic passive (Vorgangspassiv/Handlungspassiv):

Der Ingwer wird in einem Topf mit Wasser gekocht...

(The regular imperative forms are rarely used in recipes.)



Oh yes, of course!!!! :D Silly me!!!!

den Ingwer in einem Topf mit wasser kochen and der Ingwer wird in einem Topf mit Wasser gekocht look exactly right.

I think that I muddled up English with German :evil: or maybe Dutch with German because I think that both those ones use the regular imperative (?? please say natives or people who know, thanks).

I didn't know the name the dynamic passive, but for sure I know the construction well.
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