German group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3309
Contact:

Re: German group

Postby aokoye » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:39 pm

Finolia wrote:Hello :) I hope it's ok for a native speaker to butt in.
As you said "ich lern" is colloquial (or the imperative) and "ich lerne" would be the correct form. We just use it in spoken German or while chatting which is more or less speaking. As you said, you should never ever use it in a formal (in fact in any) text.
We often drop the final -e when we speak ("ich hab", "ich komm", ...) and since it's used to shorten words it wouldn't change anything if you would use an ' instead of the -e. That's why we don't use it in written German. In fact, the apostrophe is more work than simply writing the -e! :D
But I think you can use it if you want. Since it is "wrong" (colloquial) anyway there is no rule (as far as I know).

And since we drop it very very often (in spoken German!) it kind of IS "super common" :D

It's funny, I was almost going to say something like, "I hope a native German speaker pipes up..." That is really good to know, I kind of figured that was the case, but it's good to hear that from someone who speaks German natively (I would have been equally pleased to have heard from a very proficient L2 speaker who is in German speaking environments on a regular/constant basis).
0 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
TrioLinguist
White Belt
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada
Languages: English (N), German (C1), French (B1)
x 19

Re: German group

Postby TrioLinguist » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:12 am

Finolia wrote:But I think you can use it if you want. Since it is "wrong" (colloquial) anyway there is no rule (as far as I know).

It's actually incorrect according to the most recent guidelines. Let me quote Duden's 13th rule:
Man setzt einen Apostroph bei Wörtern mit Auslassungen, wenn die verkürzten Wortformen sonst schwer lesbar oder missverständlich wären <§ 96 (2)>.

Schlaf nun selig und süß, schau im Traum 's Paradies.
Dass aber der Wein von Ewigkeit sei, daran zweifl' ich nicht ...
Ein einz'ger Augenblick kann alles umgestalten.
's ist schon spät.
Das Wasser rauscht', das Wasser schwoll ...

Solche Formen treten oft in dichterischen Texten auf. Als gut lesbar und unmissverständlich gelten dagegen im Allgemeinen die folgenden Fälle:

1. Ein unbetontes -e- im Wortinnern entfällt und die kürzere Form ist allgemein gebräuchlich.

ich wechsle (wechsele)
trockner (trockener) Boden

2. Es entfällt ein Schluss-e bei bestimmten Verbformen.

Das hör ich gern.
Ich lass das nicht zu.
Leg den Mantel ab.


3. Es liegt eine verkürzte, aber häufig gebrauchte Nebenform eines Substantivs oder Adjektivs vor.

Bursch (neben: Bursche)
öd (neben: öde)
trüb (neben: trübe)
heut (neben: heute)

4. Es liegt eine Fügung vor, in der ein Adjektiv oder Pronomen ungebeugt verwendet wird.

um gut Wetter bitten
ruhig Blut bewahren
Wir wollen sein ein einzig Volk von Brüdern ...
1 x
Read 1,000,000 words out of German fiction novels : 1000000 / 1000000

User avatar
Chung
Blue Belt
Posts: 529
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:39 pm
Languages: SPEAKS: English*, French
STUDIES: Hungarian, Italian, Ukrainian
OTHER: Czech, German, Polish, Slovak
STUDIED: Azeri, BCMS/SC, Estonian, Finnish, Korean, Latin, Northern Saami, Russian, Slovenian, Turkish
DABBLED: Bashkir, Chuvash, Crimean Tatar, Inari Saami, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Latvian, Lithuanian, Meadow Mari, Mongolian, Romanian, Tatar, Turkmen, Tuvan, Uzbek
x 2309

Re: German group

Postby Chung » Mon May 01, 2017 3:43 pm

Have any of you any recommendation for practicing word order (especially the placement of elements in the "Mittelfeld")? The rule of thumb of time-manner-place for adverbs following the pronouns does have its limits.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if German word order resembles word order in Finnish or Hungarian whereby the most important or newest piece of information occurs towards the end of the phrase as I suspect it to be in something like Ich lese diese Zeitschrift jede Woche versus Ich lese jede Woche diese Zeitschrift. Both sentences seem grammatical to me although I can't imagine that they give identical signals to interlocutors.
2 x

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: California, Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - German (B2/C1) on/off study: Persian, Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 7030
Contact:

Re: German group

Postby zenmonkey » Mon May 01, 2017 4:01 pm

Oh! A German group!
Joining!

As requested a little background - I live in Germany and have been studying, on and off for 7 years however, I live almost in expat bubble, or more exactly in a polyglot bubble and do not have significant external pressure to learn, I could very well remain with a relatively low German level and survive here. My learning pressure is internal and relatively inconsistent. Hmm, that sounds more negative than I want it to be - really, I like the language, I'm working on it but I find it relatively slow going.

I'm currently reasonable good - somewhere in the B2+ level. I passed a B1 test and will be taking a B2 test this month.

My core material is a stack of dtv bilingual books, a bunch of audiobooks, Assimil (Perfectionnement Allemand) and the Klett workbooks for the exams. I use Anki and a variety of podcasts (Deutchlandfunk, DW Top Thema, DW im Alltag, DW Mission Europe, Wirtschaft, Annick Rueben ... (and I've stopped listening to Slow German). I think that covers it.

Thanks for reading, glad to be here.
2 x
I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar

User avatar
Brun Ugle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2273
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:48 pm
Location: Steinkjer, Norway
Languages: English (N), Norwegian (~C1/C2), Spanish (B1/B2), German (A2/B1?), Japanese (very rusty)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=11484
x 5821
Contact:

Re: German group

Postby Brun Ugle » Mon May 01, 2017 4:09 pm

Chung wrote:Have any of you any recommendation for practicing word order (especially the placement of elements in the "Mittelfeld")? The rule of thumb of time-manner-place for adverbs following the pronouns does have its limits.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if German word order resembles word order in Finnish or Hungarian whereby the most important or newest piece of information occurs towards the end of the phrase as I suspect it to be in something like Ich lese diese Zeitschrift jede Woche versus Ich lese jede Woche diese Zeitschrift. Both sentences seem grammatical to me although I can't imagine that they give identical signals to interlocutors.

I don't know, but if you ever figure out the secret, please let us know. This has been driving me nuts. Every time I think I've figured out the word order, they seem to change the rules. I suspect that it is a matter of emphasis, like you said, but it seems like such a slippery thing and I just can't grasp it.
1 x

User avatar
Systematiker
Blue Belt
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 6:09 pm
Languages: ENG (N); DEU (C2+) // SWG (~C1); BAR (~C1); SPA (4/3); FRA (~C1); SCO (~C1); NLD (~B2*); LAT (Latinum Bavaricum); GRC (Graecum Bavaricum); CAT (~B2*); POR (~B2*); SWE (~B2*); HBO (Hebraicum); DAN (~B1*); RUS (~A2); KOR (~A1); FAS (still a raw beginner)
*Averaged for high receptive skill
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7332
x 2070

Re: German group

Postby Systematiker » Mon May 01, 2017 4:58 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:
Chung wrote:Have any of you any recommendation for practicing word order (especially the placement of elements in the "Mittelfeld")? The rule of thumb of time-manner-place for adverbs following the pronouns does have its limits.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if German word order resembles word order in Finnish or Hungarian whereby the most important or newest piece of information occurs towards the end of the phrase as I suspect it to be in something like Ich lese diese Zeitschrift jede Woche versus Ich lese jede Woche diese Zeitschrift. Both sentences seem grammatical to me although I can't imagine that they give identical signals to interlocutors.

I don't know, but if you ever figure out the secret, please let us know. This has been driving me nuts. Every time I think I've figured out the word order, they seem to change the rules. I suspect that it is a matter of emphasis, like you said, but it seems like such a slippery thing and I just can't grasp it.


So, both sentences are grammatical, and both give the same information - but the difference is in personal emphasis (subjektive Wertung) for the speaker. In the first sentence, it's "diese Zeitschrift" that's subjectively more important to the speaker. In the second, it's "jede Woche".

Although sometimes it's more about what sounds better. Or you're using free word order to make another point, or for style.

But yeah it's at least in theory in order of subjektive Wertung.
3 x

gsbod
Blue Belt
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:22 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native)
German (advanced)
French (intermediate)
Japanese (intermediate)
Spanish (learning)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1152
x 2900

Re: German group

Postby gsbod » Mon May 01, 2017 5:11 pm

I can't find which book it is in at present (my brain is muddled by a migraine) but I'm sure in one of my textbooks that covered word order it basically said that if you followed the rules set out it would (almost?) always be grammatically correct, however in many cases other permutations would also be acceptable. When in doubt, I tend to stick one element in front of the verb, which statistically reduces the chances of fluffing the rest!
3 x

User avatar
TrioLinguist
White Belt
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada
Languages: English (N), German (C1), French (B1)
x 19

Re: German group

Postby TrioLinguist » Mon May 01, 2017 11:46 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:
Chung wrote:Have any of you any recommendation for practicing word order (especially the placement of elements in the "Mittelfeld")? The rule of thumb of time-manner-place for adverbs following the pronouns does have its limits.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if German word order resembles word order in Finnish or Hungarian whereby the most important or newest piece of information occurs towards the end of the phrase as I suspect it to be in something like Ich lese diese Zeitschrift jede Woche versus Ich lese jede Woche diese Zeitschrift. Both sentences seem grammatical to me although I can't imagine that they give identical signals to interlocutors.

I don't know, but if you ever figure out the secret, please let us know. This has been driving me nuts. Every time I think I've figured out the word order, they seem to change the rules. I suspect that it is a matter of emphasis, like you said, but it seems like such a slippery thing and I just can't grasp it.


I will let you in on the big secret: You need to absorb mass amounts of German material and then the art of German word order and all its nuances will be unlocked to you. Speaking from experience, don't bother trying to learn complex grammar rules to determine which element to place where, that time is better spent reading novels, watching television programs, listening to podcasts, etc. In my view, mass exposure in general is the key to language acquisition
3 x
Read 1,000,000 words out of German fiction novels : 1000000 / 1000000

User avatar
Chung
Blue Belt
Posts: 529
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:39 pm
Languages: SPEAKS: English*, French
STUDIES: Hungarian, Italian, Ukrainian
OTHER: Czech, German, Polish, Slovak
STUDIED: Azeri, BCMS/SC, Estonian, Finnish, Korean, Latin, Northern Saami, Russian, Slovenian, Turkish
DABBLED: Bashkir, Chuvash, Crimean Tatar, Inari Saami, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Latvian, Lithuanian, Meadow Mari, Mongolian, Romanian, Tatar, Turkmen, Tuvan, Uzbek
x 2309

Re: German group

Postby Chung » Tue May 02, 2017 12:20 am

TrioLinguist wrote:
Brun Ugle wrote:
Chung wrote:Have any of you any recommendation for practicing word order (especially the placement of elements in the "Mittelfeld")? The rule of thumb of time-manner-place for adverbs following the pronouns does have its limits.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if German word order resembles word order in Finnish or Hungarian whereby the most important or newest piece of information occurs towards the end of the phrase as I suspect it to be in something like Ich lese diese Zeitschrift jede Woche versus Ich lese jede Woche diese Zeitschrift. Both sentences seem grammatical to me although I can't imagine that they give identical signals to interlocutors.

I don't know, but if you ever figure out the secret, please let us know. This has been driving me nuts. Every time I think I've figured out the word order, they seem to change the rules. I suspect that it is a matter of emphasis, like you said, but it seems like such a slippery thing and I just can't grasp it.


I will let you in on the big secret: You need to absorb mass amounts of German material and then the art of German word order and all its nuances will be unlocked to you. Speaking from experience, don't bother trying to learn complex grammar rules to determine which element to place where, that time is better spent reading novels, watching television programs, listening to podcasts, etc. In my view, mass exposure in general is the key to language acquisition


It's not mutually exclusive. Even as I work with authentic material and do drills in FSI, I sometimes wonder why one says it one way versus another. Massive exposure helps with acquisition and building a second sense for a language but it doesn't necessarily placate an inquisitive mind rather like how plenty of native English speakers couldn't explain briefly why most of us distinguish "stank" from "stunk" rather than merge them into "stunk". A sound but concise explanation on request is valuable and in this case, Systematiker's explanation is helpful to the point that I'd now be on the lookout for it in future. It's just part of the learning process for me as I don't do mindless absorption that well.
0 x

User avatar
TrioLinguist
White Belt
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada
Languages: English (N), German (C1), French (B1)
x 19

Re: German group

Postby TrioLinguist » Tue May 02, 2017 12:41 am

Chung wrote:A sound but concise explanation on request is valuable and in this case, Systematiker's explanation is helpful to the point that I'd now be on the lookout for it in future.


I agree that it's helpful to receive a simple explanation to clear up confusion in an individual case, as you say, but I was replying to Brun Ugle saying "if you ever figure out the secret, please let us know". In my experience, if you haven't had enough authentic exposure to the language in general, it's not much use trying to acquire its sentence structure by studying grammar rules.
1 x
Read 1,000,000 words out of German fiction novels : 1000000 / 1000000


Return to “Study Groups”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests