Spanish Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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adelante
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby adelante » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:27 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
James29 wrote:Question about the use of the word abogado/abogada.

I am reading the translation of John Grisham's book "El Cliente." The book was released in 1993. The translation is pretty neutral but has a noticeable slant toward Spain Spanish. The lawyer representing the star character is a woman lawyer. The translation always uses the masculine abogado. She even uses the word abogado to describe herself. Why is this? What am I missing? Why would you not use the word abogada for a woman lawyer? Is this something that has changed since 1993? Here are some examples from the book:

"Soy el abogado de la familia..."

"?Es abogado y no le interesa el dinero?"

"Mark seguia aturdido, cansado, asustado y con una sensacion de vacio incluso despues de hablar de la situacion con su abogado."


"Abogado" is still used sometimes (and correctly) to designate both male and female lawyers. However, never say "la abogado" but "la abogada". A lot of job designations remain genderless (but masculinised) in Spanish, French, etc... You will see both uses and lots of fights about it.


This is indeed what the Real Academia Española says.

An interesting historical note appears in A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish (6th ed., 2019), Section 1.2.7:

As the social status of women improves, the stigma once attached to some feminine forms of professions is vanishing. The following should be noted:
* El/la abogado 'lawyer'. The form la abogada is now widely accepted, but it originally meant 'intercessionary saint'.


A Google n-gram comparison shows that 'la abogada' began a steady rise in the late-70s through the latest available year of data (2008) in Google's Spanish corpus.

"ABOGADA o ABOGADO / LETRADA o LETRADO", by Beatriz Monasterio Chicharro, from the website of La Asociación Libre de Abogados y Abogadas:

Llevo muchísimos años ejerciendo y, desde que me colegié, he dicho que soy ABOGADA, puesto que soy mujer y la acepción está permitida por la Real Academia de la Lengua. Así, la escritora María Ángeles Sastre nos dice sobre este tema que,

En el caso de «abogada», el Diccionario académico registra «abogado, da»; por tanto, habría que decir «la abogada» y no «la abogado». Sin embargo, en una nota dice que se usa la forma en masculino para designar el femenino. Según esta nota del diccionario, muchos hablantes podrían interpretar que «la abogado» no sería una forma incorrecta para designar a la mujer con la acepción señalada más arriba. Pero la recomendación de la RAE es clara en el Diccionario panhispánico de dudas (2005): «No debe emplearse el masculino para referirse a una mujer: ‘la abogado’».


But none of this really explains the curious - and surely incorrect - use of 'el abogado' to refer to a female lawyer. :?
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zenmonkey
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:58 pm

adelante wrote:But none of this really explains the curious - and surely incorrect - use of 'el abogado' to refer to a female lawyer. :?


Did you read what I wrote (and that you quoted)?

zenmonkey wrote: A lot of job designations remain genderless (but masculinised) in Spanish, French, etc... You will see both uses and lots of fights about it.


In other words, it is still "correct" (linguistically/historically/prescriptively speaking) to use a masculinised title. Only recently did the AR or AF begin to recognise the use of feminized titles. So while it might seem wrong, it is not "incorrect" in the sense of how a large part of the population still uses the language.

(My personal opinion is that I certainly hope that gender flexibility takes place where it makes sense - but you'll never hear me say "el dentisto.")
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adelante
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby adelante » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:55 am

zenmonkey wrote:
adelante wrote:But none of this really explains the curious - and surely incorrect - use of 'el abogado' to refer to a female lawyer. :?


Did you read what I wrote (and that you quoted)?

zenmonkey wrote: A lot of job designations remain genderless (but masculinised) in Spanish, French, etc... You will see both uses and lots of fights about it.



I did read what you wrote but clearly didn't pay close enough attention to the part you've emphasized here. I see your point.

zenmonkey wrote:In other words, it is still "correct" (linguistically/historically/prescriptively speaking) to use a masculinised title. Only recently did the AR or AF begin to recognise the use of feminized titles. So while it might seem wrong, it is not "incorrect" in the sense of how a large part of the population still uses the language.

(My personal opinion is that I certainly hope that gender flexibility takes place where it makes sense - but you'll never hear me say "el dentisto.")


Agreed. Nor will I be saying "el persono". :)
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2019 Spanish Goals
: 292819 / 1200000 1.2M words read
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: 18 / 100 100 hours of speaking
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Jaleel10
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:03 am



The channel is awesome if you're interested in Mexican Spanish. This one too
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Spoonary » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:44 am

In all the time I have been studying Spanish, I have, almost exclusively, focused on peninsular Spanish, having been taught this variety of the language throughout my formal education. I then started watching Spanish TV and listening to podcasts from Spain. Therefore, the Spanish I speak - my pronunciation and vocabulary choice - has always been essentially Spanish.

However, the more time I spend with my Argentinian tutor, watching/listening to media from Argentina and learning all manner of Argentine vocab and turns of phrase, the more chance this has of influencing the way I speak Spanish. I don't see any problem with this; in fact, I am having a great time enriching my vocabulary use and knowledge of Spanish as the widely-Spoken language it is. Plus, I don't think my 'language core' (to use Luca Lampariello's term) will be affected; I can't see myself switching to using seseo and voseo any time soon.

The problem arises when I start to think about aiming for some sort of 'near-native' level of Spanish proficiency. Can I really do that if half the words I use are Spanish and half of them Argentinian or from some other country? Does it really matter, given that I am not living in a country where Spanish is spoken natively and I am definitely still English, no matter how good my Spanish gets?

I dunno, what do you guys think? Has anyone had any experience diversifying or completely changing the Spanish (or any other language) accent/dialect they use?

I guess these are the things I think about when I can't sleep.
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Brun Ugle
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Brun Ugle » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:35 am

Spoonary wrote:In all the time I have been studying Spanish, I have, almost exclusively, focused on peninsular Spanish, having been taught this variety of the language throughout my formal education. I then started watching Spanish TV and listening to podcasts from Spain. Therefore, the Spanish I speak - my pronunciation and vocabulary choice - has always been essentially Spanish.

However, the more time I spend with my Argentinian tutor, watching/listening to media from Argentina and learning all manner of Argentine vocab and turns of phrase, the more chance this has of influencing the way I speak Spanish. I don't see any problem with this; in fact, I am having a great time enriching my vocabulary use and knowledge of Spanish as the widely-Spoken language it is. Plus, I don't think my 'language core' (to use Luca Lampariello's term) will be affected; I can't see myself switching to using seseo and voseo any time soon.

The problem arises when I start to think about aiming for some sort of 'near-native' level of Spanish proficiency. Can I really do that if half the words I use are Spanish and half of them Argentinian or from some other country? Does it really matter, given that I am not living in a country where Spanish is spoken natively and I am definitely still English, no matter how good my Spanish gets?

I dunno, what do you guys think? Has anyone had any experience diversifying or completely changing the Spanish (or any other language) accent/dialect they use?

I guess these are the things I think about when I can't sleep.

Reaching a level where you are virtually indistinguishable from a native without leaving your own country is definitely possible because I’ve met several people in Norway with that level of English. Of course, they were generally exposed to loads of English language media from early childhood onwards and started learning the language formally at a young age too.

I’ve also met people here who speak a sort of mixed Norwegian dialect because they moved during childhood and their speech ended up including features of both dialects. So, I don’t think mixing dialects is all that strange or bad. Of course, moving from one country to another is less common than moving within a single country, but I’m sure there are people out there that mix different dialects of Spanish too. They probably lean mostly toward one dialect, but include some features of the other.
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Spoonary
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Spoonary » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:00 am

Brun Ugle wrote:Reaching a level where you are virtually indistinguishable from a native without leaving your own country is definitely possible because I’ve met several people in Norway with that level of English. Of course, they were generally exposed to loads of English language media from early childhood onwards and started learning the language formally at a young age too.

I’ve also met people here who speak a sort of mixed Norwegian dialect because they moved during childhood and their speech ended up including features of both dialects. So, I don’t think mixing dialects is all that strange or bad. Of course, moving from one country to another is less common than moving within a single country, but I’m sure there are people out there that mix different dialects of Spanish too. They probably lean mostly toward one dialect, but include some features of the other.

You know, I didn't even consider native speakers who have lived in multiple places when I wrote my original post. I guess I'm more wrapped up in my own life than I thought :lol:

Yeah, I think I would need to really put my mind to it if I was serious about reaching a near native level. I dunno if I will get to that point, we'll see.

I suppose the novelty of being able to throw a bit of local slang into a conversation when speaking to someone from a different Spanish-speaking country is just like knowing a few words in any language and using them to impress/amuse a native of that language. :P
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iguanamon
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby iguanamon » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:52 pm

Mixing dialects is my life in my native language, English. I was born and raised in the Upper South of the US and spent the majority of my life there. I spent a decade in Northern England and another decade in the English-speaking Caribbean. I lived almost a year in Australia too. You'd be surprised to hear certain words and phrases come out of my mouth with my accent in English. It just shows that I've had an interesting life.

My Spanish started out as a mixture with influence from Mexico, Cuba and Puerto Rico. Now, the major influence comes from Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic because those are the largest community of Spanish-speakers here and Puerto Rico is only a half an hour flight away. When I travel in Spain, I don't have a problem speaking with and understanding Spaniards. Nobody minds when I don't use vosotros conjugations or speak with seseo. I have a very Anglo appearance and have never been mistaken for a Spaniard, Puerto Rican, Dominican or even Argentinian. It doesn't matter if I am wearing a guayabera, linen trousers and a panama hat, they know.

The words and expressions I use which are particular to the regions that have influenced my Spanish serve as icebreakers when I get into conversations with native Spanish-speakers- "Oh, where did you learn Spanish?". I am never going to master Spanish slang and colloquial usage to the point of passing for a native-speaker, and, there's nothing wrong with that. It gives me credit for being a foreigner who took the time and effort to learn Spanish and speak it well enough to be able to carry on conversations with ease, which means that when I speak, it's more about what I say rather than how I say it. So, Spoon, don't worry about the odd Argentine expressions or vocabulary that enter into your Castillian. It's just like adding a little pepper or paprika to your mashed potatoes. It makes it a bit more flavorful and interesting.
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James29
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby James29 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Spoonary wrote:In all the time I have been studying Spanish, I have, almost exclusively, focused on peninsular Spanish, having been taught this variety of the language throughout my formal education. I then started watching Spanish TV and listening to podcasts from Spain. Therefore, the Spanish I speak - my pronunciation and vocabulary choice - has always been essentially Spanish.

However, the more time I spend with my Argentinian tutor, watching/listening to media from Argentina and learning all manner of Argentine vocab and turns of phrase, the more chance this has of influencing the way I speak Spanish. I don't see any problem with this; in fact, I am having a great time enriching my vocabulary use and knowledge of Spanish as the widely-Spoken language it is. Plus, I don't think my 'language core' (to use Luca Lampariello's term) will be affected; I can't see myself switching to using seseo and voseo any time soon.

The problem arises when I start to think about aiming for some sort of 'near-native' level of Spanish proficiency. Can I really do that if half the words I use are Spanish and half of them Argentinian or from some other country? Does it really matter, given that I am not living in a country where Spanish is spoken natively and I am definitely still English, no matter how good my Spanish gets?

I dunno, what do you guys think? Has anyone had any experience diversifying or completely changing the Spanish (or any other language) accent/dialect they use?

I guess these are the things I think about when I can't sleep.


Don't worry about it at all. Just keep getting better and better. A big mish mash is the best way to go... in my opinion. I occasionally get native people thinking I'm a native speaker and ask where in the heck my Spanish is from. Nobody from Spain ever thinks I'm from Spain; nobody from Mexico ever thinks I'm from Mexico and nobody from Colombia ever thinks I'm from Colombia. The people who mistake you for a native speaker will not be the people who are most familiar with your style of Spanish.
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Jaleel10
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Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:10 am

A MOOC for B2 and C1 students - CLAVES gramaticales ELE: NIVEL C1 de español.

https://miriadax.net/web/claves-gramati ... nol/inicio
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