Spanish Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
kulaputra
Orange Belt
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:04 am
Languages: English (N), Kannada (semi-native, illiterate), Spanish (~C1), Hindi (A2 speech, B1 comprehension), French (A1 speech, A2 listening, >=B1 reading), Mandarin Chinese (~A1)
x 323

Re: Spanish Group

Postby kulaputra » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:40 pm

Ser wrote:I'd also like to take the opportunity to point out that using questions of ability ("Could you...") in requests is largely a thing of English politeness, and most Spanish speakers don't ask such questions. 'Could you ask him to do it?' would normally be por favor pídele que lo haga.


Funny, I've heard exactly the reverse: that Spanish speakers are much more averse to using the imperative then English speakers, e.g. where we might say "Bring me a paella" to a waiter, Spanish speakers usually prefer "¿Puede traerme una paella por favor?" But perhaps this is regionally dependent?

Ser wrote:
    De ser tú les pediría a tus niños que se estén tranquilos.
    'If I were you, I'd ask your children to stay quiet.' (estarse tranquilo is an idiom)
    Normalmente insistiríamos en que baile en el evento, de no ser por la hora.
    'We'd normally insist that he dance in the event, if it weren't for the current time (it's too late).'
    ¿Preferirían que se lo diga ella?
    'Would you prefer that she tell him?'

By the way, how would you say the last two examples in British/Australian English? I went full North American there using English present subjunctives ("that he dance", "that she tell him"), and I'd like to know how to express such things in other dialects.


A couple of ways. One is to use a modal:

'We'd normally insist that he should dance in the event, if it wasn't for the current time (it's too late).'

'Would you prefer that she should tell him?'

Another is just to use the indicative:

'We'd normally insist that he dances in the event, if it wasn't for the current time (it's too late).'

'Would you prefer she told him?' OR 'Would you prefer she tells him?'

Although this can result in ambiguities or confusion for an American such as myself. For example, like most American English speakers, I make the following distinction:

I insist that he is there ==> I know he is there and I am insisting on that fact.
I insist that he be there ==> I have demanded that he show up
Last edited by kulaputra on Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
3 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

Andy E
Yellow Belt
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:41 am
Languages: *
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8001
x 141

Re: Spanish Group

Postby Andy E » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:21 pm

Ser wrote:Normalmente insistiríamos en que baile en el evento, de no ser por la hora.
'We'd normally insist that he dance in the event, if it weren't for the current time (it's too late).'
¿Preferirían que se lo diga ella?
'Would you prefer that she tell him?'[/list]



By the way, how would you say the last two examples in British/Australian English? I went full North American there using English present subjunctives ("that he dance", "that she tell him"), and I'd like to know how to express such things in other dialects.


I was going to check the RAE for La concordancia de tiempos but I think you've probably covered it :)

As a Brit I would most likely say:

We'd normally insist he dances in the event, if it weren't for the current time. (although the if clause sounds a bit clumsy)

Would you prefer her to tell him?

or

Would you rather she tells him?
0 x

Online
User avatar
Ser
Green Belt
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:28 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Languages: Spanish (N)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8737
x 719

Re: Spanish Group

Postby Ser » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:09 pm

eido wrote:I've been writing, for example:
Me gusta que me lo dijeras / I like that you told me it
Me gustaría si me lo dijeras / I would like if you told me it
Si dejaras de ir allí, me alegría mucho / If you stopped going there, I'd be happy
Antes de que él muriera, habría estado muy contento, ¿no crees? / Before he died, he would've been very happy, don't you think?
Quiero que me lo digas / I want you to tell me it
¿Podrías decírmelo? / Could you tell me it?

    Me gusta que me lo dijeras. 'I like that you told me (you sometimes don't).'
    Me gusta que me lo dijiste. 'I like that you told me (at that specific moment, no comment about other times).'

Me gusta que can be followed by either indicative or subjunctive, depending on whether something always happens or truly happened, or something sometimes possibly happens/happened. I agree with the presentation the Argentinian guy gives in this WordReference forum thread.

    Me gustaría que me lo dijeras. (or: ...si me lo dijeras) 'I'd like it if you told me'
Me gustaría que can only be followed by subjunctive though.

    Si dejaras de ir allí, me alegraría mucho. 'If you stopped going there, I'd be happy.'
    Antes de morir, él habría estado contento, ¿no crees? 'Before he died, he would've been happy, don't you think?'
    Quiero que me lo digas. 'I want you to tell me.'
    Podrías decírmelo. 'Could you tell me?'

I'd like to add that I hope you won't fret over this much. Honestly, I'm not sure how useful grammar comments and explanations are anyway... and probably nobody really is either. There is something good to be said about acquiring grammar implicitly through immersion.
kulaputra wrote:Funny, I've heard exactly the reverse: that Spanish speakers are much more averse to using the imperative then English speakers, e.g. where we might say "Bring me a paella" to a waiter, Spanish speakers usually prefer ¿Puede traerme una paella por favor?" But perhaps this is regionally dependent?

Hmm, huh, you're right about restaurant conventions. It'd be weird to ask a waiter "Could you bring me a plate of huevos rancheros?" in English. Who knows... maybe I'm wrong about this observation.
2 x

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Intermediate - Mid)
Russian (Novice)
x 893
Contact:

Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:44 am

Ser y Kulaputra, os doy las gracias :D No esperaba explicaciones tan detalladas. Me ayudasteis mucho
0 x

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Intermediate - Mid)
Russian (Novice)
x 893
Contact:

Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:22 pm

I found this website called ZonaEle. Looks like it sells materials for the DELE exams but that is not why I am writing this message. They have a section, a mini grammar reference of sorts, where all the aspects of Spanish grammar seem to be summarised in a neat layout. Enjoy!

* http://zonaele.com/gramatica-espanola
* http://zonaele.com/spanish-grammar (English version)

Irregular verbs:
* http://zonaele.com/verbos-irregulares/
* http://zonaele.com/irregular-verbs/ (English version)
4 x

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Intermediate - Mid)
Russian (Novice)
x 893
Contact:

Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:51 am

Commands with pronouns. Where does the stress fall (where do you place the accent)?

I explained it to someone in the Español section. Thought I would put here. It's something I picked through reading and listening. Any corrections are welcomed.

----------------------------------
Ok, The stress for a compounded-command (a term in my head haha, command + pronoun) falls on the same place it fell on WITHOUT the pronoun

Di - Stress obviously falls on the only/first syllable
selo - Stress falls on the first syllable

Hagamos -Normal stress rules, on the second last syllable
Hagámoslo

Mantén
Mantenlo

Diga
gaselo

Vamos
monos

Contad
Contádmelo

Bañad
Bañaos

Calle
llense

It works 99% of the time. Just a little trick I picked up :lol:

It even works for El Voseo of Argentina and Uruguay:

Con
Contame

Fi
Fijate
0 x

kulaputra
Orange Belt
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:04 am
Languages: English (N), Kannada (semi-native, illiterate), Spanish (~C1), Hindi (A2 speech, B1 comprehension), French (A1 speech, A2 listening, >=B1 reading), Mandarin Chinese (~A1)
x 323

Re: Spanish Group

Postby kulaputra » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:17 pm

The addition of Spanish clitics never changes stress, I believe. So your rule should work 100% of the time. Not just for commands:

Me gustaría beberlo.
2 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Intermediate - Mid)
Russian (Novice)
x 893
Contact:

Re: Spanish Group

Postby Jaleel10 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:45 pm

kulaputra wrote:The addition of Spanish clitics never changes stress, I believe. So your rule should work 100% of the time. Not just for commands:

Me gustaría beberlo.


Oh nice, I never knew there was a rule.To make sure I had to say like different 50 commands in my head before pressing post :lol:

Gracias de nuevo kulaputra
0 x

Online
User avatar
Ser
Green Belt
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:28 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Languages: Spanish (N)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8737
x 719

Re: Spanish Group

Postby Ser » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:00 pm

kulaputra wrote:The addition of Spanish clitics never changes stress, I believe. So your rule should work 100% of the time. Not just for commands:

Me gustaría beberlo.

There's exceptions but they all belong to the colloquial and dialectal level of the language.

For example, in my dialect (that of El Salvador), monos 'let's go' is sometimes pronounced as if it was "vamonós". Siéntense 'please sit down (you guys)' can be pronounced sientensén (yes, with an -n at the end, it's not a typo) if you want to sound authoritative to your children or something like that.

Again, colloquial and dialectal. In the standard language it does work 100% of the time.
2 x

kulaputra
Orange Belt
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:04 am
Languages: English (N), Kannada (semi-native, illiterate), Spanish (~C1), Hindi (A2 speech, B1 comprehension), French (A1 speech, A2 listening, >=B1 reading), Mandarin Chinese (~A1)
x 323

Re: Spanish Group

Postby kulaputra » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:33 pm

Ser wrote:
kulaputra wrote:The addition of Spanish clitics never changes stress, I believe. So your rule should work 100% of the time. Not just for commands:

Me gustaría beberlo.

There's exceptions but they all belong to the colloquial and dialectal level of the language.

For example, in my dialect (that of El Salvador), monos 'let's go' is sometimes pronounced as if it was "vamonós". Siéntense 'please sit down (you guys)' can be pronounced sientensén (yes, with an -n at the end, it's not a typo) if you want to sound authoritative to your children or something like that.

Again, colloquial and dialectal. In the standard language it does work 100% of the time.


A good point, although not a true exception, it's a rule only in specific dialects. In most dialects, clitics can never be stressed; instead, emphasis is added by clitic doubling:

No lo quiero, tómatelo .

melo a mi

In Central American dialects, however, clitics can be stressed for emphasis/force.
0 x
Iha śāriputra: rūpaṃ śūnyatā śūnyataiva rūpaṃ; rūpān na pṛthak śūnyatā śunyatāyā na pṛthag rūpaṃ; yad rūpaṃ sā śūnyatā; ya śūnyatā tad rūpaṃ.

--Heart Sutra

Please correct any of my non-native languages, if needed!


Return to “Study Groups”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest