Spanish Group

[Andy E]

What could be confusing here (I guess): use of LE for complemento directo. It is possible, when we are referring to a man.

http://www.rae.es/consultas/uso-de-los- ... smo-loismo

[Dada la gran extensión en el uso de los hablantes cultos de ciertas zonas de España de la forma le cuando el referente es un hombre, se admite, únicamente para el masculino singular, el uso de le en función de complemento directo de persona: ¿Has visto a Jorge? Sí, le vi ayer en el parque].

I've noticed on a number of occasions watching a Spanish TV series where the actor /speaking Peninsular Spanish uses leísmo and the subtitles "correct" it

[Cavesa]

What could be confusing here (I guess): use of LE for complemento directo. It is possible, when we are referring to a man.

http://www.rae.es/consultas/uso-de-los- ... smo-loismo

[Dada la gran extensión en el uso de los hablantes cultos de ciertas zonas de España de la forma le cuando el referente es un hombre, se admite, únicamente para el masculino singular, el uso de le en función de complemento directo de persona: ¿Has visto a Jorge? Sí, le vi ayer en el parque].

I've noticed on a number of occasions watching a Spanish TV series where the actor /speaking Peninsular Spanish uses leísmo and the subtitles "correct" it

This is why I had to look this issue up. I am used almost excusively to Peninsular Spanish, so I understood immediately and wondered what was Bex finding weird I am quite sure I would instinctively use "le" but it makes sense "lo" is more correct and universal.

[Andy E]

This is why I had to look this issue up. I am used almost excusively to Peninsular Spanish, so I understood immediately and wondered what was Bex finding weird I am quite sure I would instinctively use "le" but it makes sense "lo" is more correct and universal.

I started with Peninsular Spanish almost twenty years ago and over the last nine months I've returned to my "roots" such that I am now practicing distinción again and not using leísmo feels a little "off" - as does not seeing it and not hearing it for that matter.

[Bex]

Ah the Leísmos!

I've been studying the pronouns this week and this is why this sentence confused me. I was planning to look at the Leísmos next week...

...hopefully this sentence will make more sense afterwards!

I have been reading peninsula Spanish and I just thought I had completely mis-understood the pronouns when I started working with my grammar book this week but maybe looking at the Leísmos in more detail will help me get this straight in my head finally.

Thanks all for pointing me in the right direction.

[smallwhite]

"Le mató su propio hermano"

The "le" could mean a variety of things and is an unreliable piece of information, whereas "su proprio hermano" without "a" is a more reliable piece of information that tells you that "su proprio hermano" is not the one who was killed.

"le mató su propio hermano"
"su propio hermano le mató"
should read the same to you, and

"le mató a su propio hermano"
"a su propio hermano le mató"
should read the same to you.

I think What I mean is, word order shouldn't affect your understanding, only the presence or the lack of "a" should.

[Bex]

I think What I mean is, word order shouldn't affect your understanding, only the presence or the lack of "a" should.

Thanks smallwhite that's really helpful, Spanish word order seems ridiculously flexible but those little a's seem to mean everything

[Balltongue]

"le mató su propio hermano"
"su propio hermano le mató"
should read the same to you, and

"le mató a su propio hermano"
"a su propio hermano le mató"
should read the same to you.

The last construction is not right.

"Le mató su propio hermano."
"Su propio hermano le mató."
"Mató a su propio hermano."
(Good.)

"A su propio hermano... mató." (Sounds sooo unconfortable to my ears... but used in some songs. Musicians bend the language sometimes in order to compose.)

Now, I'm from Caracas, Venezuela and I'm used to "lo/la."

"Lo mató su propio hermano."
"La mató su propio hermano."

"Lo mató su propia hermana."
"La mató su propia hermana."

"Mato a su propio hermano."
"Él mató a su propio hermano."
"Ella mató a su propio hermano."

We don't have a word for sibling. We use only brother and sister so.

[Balltongue]

"le mató a su propio hermano"
"a su propio hermano le mató"
should read the same to you.

Wait, I'm sorry. There is in fact a way to use both at the same sentence. But means another thing completely.

"Le mató a el hermano." Wrong.
"Le mató al hermano." Good.

That means something like someone killed one of two brothers, especially if they're twins.

[Andy E]

I have been reading peninsula Spanish and I just thought I had completely mis-understood the pronouns when I started working with my grammar book this week but maybe looking at the Leísmos in more detail will help me get this straight in my head finally.

I well remember that in my first Spanish grammar book leísmo was conspicuous by its absence so when I first encountered it I was mightily confused

An interesting little note from the RAE follows:

16.5.1b El leísmo de persona masculino (tipo A) es el más frecuente, tanto en el español antiguo como en el moderno. Aparece profusamente en los textos medievales y clásicos, y era incluso la forma recomendada por la Real Academia Española hasta la cuarta edición de su gramática (1796). Mientras que en plural es menos frecuente, y no se recomienda, puede documentarse en singular en un gran número de escritores prestigiosos y no se considera incorrecto. Es considerablemente más frecuente en los textos españoles que en los americanos, pero no está ausente de estos últimos...

Yep. Up until the 4th Edition of the Grammar leísmo was the recommended form.

[Balltongue]

Ya know... is the first time in my life that I need to think about this thing in spanish. However I just thought a really really simple way to put it.

You killed him.
Tú mataste lo》》Tú lo mataste.
(Now you can ignore the pronoun because it MUST be "you.")
Lo mataste.

A female victim would be:

You killed her.
Tú mataste la》》Tú la mataste.
La mataste.

Same thing if I'm the killer, of course, because the verb changes so you guess the pronoun.

I killed him.
Yo maté lo》》Yo lo maté. Lo maté.

I kill her.
Yo maté la》》Yo la maté. La maté.

He killed him.
Él mató lo》》Él lo mató. Lo mató.

Now... "lo mató" is not enough information. You can't guess if the killer was a he or a she.

She killed him.
Ella mató lo》》Ella lo mató. Lo mató.

He killed her.
Él mato la》》Él la mató. La mató.

She killed her.
Ella mató la》》Ella la mató. La mató.

We can ignore the gender of the victim regardless the pronoun.

Le mataste. (You.)
Le maté. (Me.)
Le mató. (He or she.)
Él le mató. Ella le mató.

Remember to stress the pronoun and not the article. Like:
Él mató a el gato》》Él mató al gato.

¿El gato? Lo mató él.

I'm really sorry for the long post. I was so inspired. Cheers.