Team Middle East

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:22 pm

ancient forest wrote:
Hashimi wrote:So basically, most verbs and nouns are the same in MSA and Hijazi. Just learn MSA + the function words of Hijazi + the intonation, and don't pronounce the final vowels of MSA (e.g. say "akalt" or "akalit" أكلتْ not "akaltu" أكلتُ)


If you want to take the approach of modifying MSA to sound less bookish, I think that the Formal Spoken Arabic Fast Course and Basic Course work really well. The Fast Course is easier, but the Basic Course assumes an intermediate level of MSA before starting it. There are a lot of dialogues to listen to, and that is actually what the bulk of the course is based around. The nouns and verbs are not used in exactly the same way as MSA, but there are used in a very similar way. It then uses function words that are common across the Arab word, but it defaults to Levantine when they are different, so it represents a sort of mix between MSA and dialects. It is categorized in Badawi's (1985) continuum as level 3 by Ryding:


Hi ancient forest, I just want to clarify what you mean by Formal Spoken Arabic Fast Course and Basic Course. Is the former the DLI Saudi Arabic Headstart course you're referring to and the latter ('Basic Course' as you've written) the FSI Saudi Arabic (Urban Hijazi Dialect) Basic Course that you are referring to?

If you feel that the 'Basic Course' assumes an intermediate level of MSA, I think it is not a good course for me to begin with. I was looking at beginning with one MSA course and one Saudi Arabic course at the same time. Perhaps it might be better for me to begin with the Saudi Arabic Headstart course before tackling the FSI Saudi Arabic Basic Course, then. This together with what Hashimi has mentioned with regards to Assimil has me thinking that in terms of rating certain courses as particularly good or bad, Hashimi has been perhaps strongly influenced by the pace of the course and maybe how complex the course in question might be. For me, an absolute beginner in Arabic, starting of with faster-paced courses or courses assuming some background understand of MSA, is not a good idea.


ancient forest wrote:it is clear that this course represents a cross between MSA and Colloquial Arabic in an attempt to make it easier for students who can speak in MSA to build on their MSA knowledge and communicate with native speakers.
Again, you mean the DLI Saudi Arabic Headstart course, right?

ancient forest wrote:
Hashimi wrote:Michel Thomas Arabic course is useless.


I would not go so far as to say that it is useless. I think that it has a lot of shortcomings. That is for sure, but it is easy enough for beginners, which I think is good because it helps beginning students to gain more confidence before tackling other courses. Arabic is not easy, and I think that easy courses can be used even if they have shortcomings.


I'm glad you are putting yourself in the learners shoes here. Perhaps MT would be okay for me, given I need a LOT of hand-holding with such an alien (to me) language. But, the question reamains, would learning some Egyptian dialect be of any use to me moving to Riyadh or would it just serve to confuse me?

ancient forest wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:As for the dictionary, well here perhaps we differ as well. I have two very thick French dictionaries sitting beside me - one French only, the other FR-EN-FR. Why? Well, I just like paper sometimes, and I feel our reliance on technology is a little unhealthy.


The most useful paper dictionary in Arabic and English is Hans Wehr. The only issue with it for beginners is that the words are arranged by root letters and the verbs are categorized by ten forms, which makes it difficult to use until learning some Arabic morphology. That is why I think that it is enough for beginners to rely on using the glossaries in textbooks and using online sources until enough Arabic morphology is learned to use dictionaries properly. Another dictionary that is useful for advanced studies in Classical Arabic is Lane's Lexicon, but you would not need that for quite a while unless you are just interested in collecting dictionaries.


The reason I was keen on the French trilingual dictionary I had come across, was that, wherever possible I want French to serve as my base language. I'm not keen on purchasing a different dictionary because it's more highly regarded if it's only slightly better than the trilingual dictionary I came across (my wife could use the English, myself French). Still, I have my doubts about the trilingual dictionaries functionality in reality. In the end I think it's a good idea I just stick to the electronic dictionary Hashimi provided a link to, which has English and French and work out later if I need something else, as it sounds like I won't be needing something like that for a while.

Still, I had read about the Hans Wehr dictionary and did see that it was regarded as one of the best (if not the best), but in the end I drew my focus closer to the Al-Mawrid trilingual dictionary as the Al-Mawrid Arabic-English dictionary seemed almost as good as the Hans Wehr dictionary or even equally regarded, I just thought I'd then drop down a rung and go for the trilingual one even if I did lose several thousands of words (I am unlikely to need them).
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ancient forest
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby ancient forest » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:45 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Hi ancient forest, I just want to clarify what you mean by Formal Spoken Arabic Fast Course and Basic Course. Is the former the DLI Saudi Arabic Headstart course you're referring to and the latter ('Basic Course' as you've written) the FSI Saudi Arabic (Urban Hijazi Dialect) Basic Course that you are referring to?

They are not the same courses. The Formal Spoken Arabic: Fast (Ryding and Zaiback) and Basic (Ryding and Mehall) courses are published by Georgetown University Press with MP3 files. I think these courses are an attempt to train people to speak with educated Arabs from around the world using language that is more formal than colloquial Arabic but more natural for conversation than MSA. When colloquial terms are used, the intent is to use terms that are common to many dialects whenever possible, but they default to Levantine Arabic when there are differences.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:59 pm

ancient forest wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Hi ancient forest, I just want to clarify what you mean by Formal Spoken Arabic Fast Course and Basic Course. Is the former the DLI Saudi Arabic Headstart course you're referring to and the latter ('Basic Course' as you've written) the FSI Saudi Arabic (Urban Hijazi Dialect) Basic Course that you are referring to?

They are not the same courses. The Formal Spoken Arabic: Fast (Ryding and Zaiback) and Basic (Ryding and Mehall) courses are published by Georgetown University Press with MP3 files. I think these courses are an attempt to train people to speak with educated Arabs from around the world using language that is more formal than colloquial Arabic but more natural for conversation than MSA. When colloquial terms are used, the intent is to use terms that are common to many dialects whenever possible, but they default to Levantine Arabic when there are differences.


Thank you for the clarification ancient forest, I therefore was incorrect about Hashimi's view of courses in general. Thank you both for your input (I realise ancient forest, you were not initially addressing me, but thank you for clarifying).
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ancient forest
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby ancient forest » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:47 am

PeterMollenburg wrote: I was looking at beginning with one MSA course and one Saudi Arabic course at the same time.


I would like to learn any of the Saudi dialects, and there may be others here that would like to learn either or both a Saudi dialect and MSA, so once you pick the courses you want to work on, maybe we could get a group together to work on the same material.

cjareck wrote:أهلا وسهلا ومرحبا يا اصدقاء!
I would like also encourage Arabic learners to use the thread as writing practice. Unfortunately writing such an encouragement in Arabic is currently far more above my level of the language. But maybe someday I will be able to post my thoughts in Arabic also ;)


Maybe working on the same material would help us to have writing practice with each other since we would have a common background to work with.
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: 6 / 50 Speaking Arabic: A Course in Conversational Eastern Arabic

MattNeilsen
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby MattNeilsen » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:00 am

@PM, I'm just glad you're even dabbling in Arabic - the Team Middle East thread has seen more action in the last week than it has in the last ~6 months because of you :)
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:28 am

ancient forest wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote: I was looking at beginning with one MSA course and one Saudi Arabic course at the same time.


I would like to learn any of the Saudi dialects, and there may be others here that would like to learn either or both a Saudi dialect and MSA, so once you pick the courses you want to work on, maybe we could get a group together to work on the same material.

cjareck wrote:أهلا وسهلا ومرحبا يا اصدقاء!
I would like also encourage Arabic learners to use the thread as writing practice. Unfortunately writing such an encouragement in Arabic is currently far more above my level of the language. But maybe someday I will be able to post my thoughts in Arabic also ;)


Maybe working on the same material would help us to have writing practice with each other since we would have a common background to work with.


Sounds interesting... in other words, I am interested, so we'll see what develops then, eh? :)

At this stage for dialect(s) I'm thinking either DLI Saudi Arabic Headstart or FSI Saudi Arabic (Urban Hijazi Dialect) or even both. Given that FSI course seems to be bigger, I might be better to begin with the DLI Headstart course and once completed move on to the FSI course.

As for MSA courses, the various Assimil couses, the two levels of Manuel d'arabe moderne link to amazon.fr here and the numerous levels of Manuel d'arabe en ligne amazon.fr link here are the courses I'm gravitating towards. I"m not sure they'll be anyone else interested in the same courses as myself. I wish I had more time!!!

MattNeilsen wrote:@PM, I'm just glad you're even dabbling in Arabic - the Team Middle East thread has seen more action in the last week than it has in the last ~6 months because of you :)


Haha, yeah I was thinking the same in that I've gone a little post-crazy, but for good reason, I guess. I've had some really decent feedback too. Still, with a plan to only do an hour a day which may be less given all the organising we must do prior to the move (wish I had more time- for all my languages!), I can't see me making huge progress, but better than non (so 'dabbling' is definitely the fitting word)...
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cjareck
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby cjareck » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:27 am

ancient forest wrote:Maybe working on the same material would help us to have writing practice with each other since we would have a common background to work with.

That would be nice, but will not be easy to achieve because we have different goals. And even using different languages from we learn Arabic. I am using DLI MSA Basic Course if anyone would like to join, we may discuss a strategy. I am doing the 7th lesson (from 141) now. I may start FSI written Arabic also. But Arabic is not my priority language, so my progress is rather slow. Also, I am not interested in dialects now, especially the Saudi ones.
We may also discuss our progress and difficulties with grammatical concepts and so on, but this will be different in MSA and in dialects.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:40 am

cjareck wrote:
ancient forest wrote:Maybe working on the same material would help us to have writing practice with each other since we would have a common background to work with.

That would be nice, but will not be easy to achieve because we have different goals. And even using different languages from we learn Arabic. I am using DLI MSA Basic Course if anyone would like to join, we may discuss a strategy. I am doing the 7th lesson (from 141) now. I may start FSI written Arabic also. But Arabic is not my priority language, so my progress is rather slow. Also, I am not interested in dialects now, especially the Saudi ones.
We may also discuss our progress and difficulties with grammatical concepts and so on, but this will be different in MSA and in dialects.


I must admit, this was my concern too- people having different priorities. We are placing different degrees of importance on Arabic, which will affect the dedication and the time we put into it. We also prefer different courses and different base languages, and first and foremost, different types of Arabic- MSA vs dialects, focusing on speech vs written Arabic, using transliteration or not, classical vs MSA. Studying because we are on location or not, we may have already started a course or definitely do not want to go near a particular course, while others do. So many variables. We may get some using the same courses (in particular MSA), but even then... You get the picture. I am more than happy to form some kind of group feeling or individual accountability for the benefit of the group in attempting to forge ahead with the language, but I think using the same materials is likely to be two people at best.

Given I've re-invigorated this thread, I think, even if we managed to get a bunch of ppl using one course that's the same, enthusiasm will wane. I encourage people to go it alone with whatever works for them, but to share more of their experience(s) here, as from what I've seen so far, the degree of activity in this thread leaves a little to be desired. So many either hovering in the background or completely MIA.

Given that it was ancient forest who proposed the idea of group activity, since I'm stubborn and likely to only choose the courses I want to do, you're welcome to join me in that adventure, but i'm unlikely to want to change my materials for the good of the group. There's too much in the way of hurdles as it is in learning a language, let alone a Cat V language fraught with difficulties in accessing suitable learning material, thus I'm going to choose what I want to choose :)
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ancient forest
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby ancient forest » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:00 pm

Yes, it would be a little more complicated than I expected to try and work on the same materials with all of the different varieties of Arabic and the different goals.

PeterMollenburg wrote: Given I've re-invigorated this thread, I think, even if we managed to get a bunch of ppl using one course that's the same, enthusiasm will wane. I encourage people to go it alone with whatever works for them, but to share more of their experience(s) here, as from what I've seen so far, the degree of activity in this thread leaves a little to be desired. So many either hovering in the background or completely MIA.


I agree. Even if everyone is using a different course, the important thing is to keep the enthusiasm up and keep working at it.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:43 pm

I think I’ve found the best MSA course for French speakers, and I urge those who can and would like to learn MSA from a French base to take a look. I expect this course to become the gold standard for francophones. It’s called Manuel d’arabe (link on amazon.fr) or Manuel d’arabe en ligne (amazon.fr link) by Ghalib Al-Hakkak. Not to be confused with Manuel d’arabe moderne by Luc-Willy Deheuvels, another course altogether, which does interest me as it also appears good, but doesn’t reach the same level of positive feedback from reviewers as Manuel d’arabe.

The two versions of Manuel d’arabe (the better course, not the other I state don’t get confused with) are quite different- one for those of us with no access to tutors or teachers, studying independently (first link above), the other, significantly less bulky, (2nd link above) is for classroom based study.

The course has several volumes and looks very recent, so much so the third volume was only released mid 2017 and volumes 4 through 7 are yet to be released. Put together, all volumes are designed to be a year-long of intensive study combined, with each volume around 7 or eight weeks of relatively intensive work, but could of course, be stretched out over a longer period. Thus, it’s pricey, but it appears it would be money well spent, if you can afford it.

Although at best I counted only 6 reviewers for a single volume, every review across all volumes released so gives it 5 out of 5 stars. Some very lengthy reviews give plenty of detail as to why it’s such a good series.

No, I’ve not used it (yet), and nor am I affiliated. Now, I need to get back into a routine...
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