Team Middle East

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
nooj
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby nooj » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:37 pm

نبيلة معن, (Nabila Ma3n) Moroccan singer, famous in Morocco.



My favourite Algerian singer, سعاد ماسي (Sou3ad Maasi)

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Ogrim
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby Ogrim » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:13 am

I am thinking about signing up to italki and take a few Arabic lessons there. I believe I am soon at a stage where it would be useful to work on my Arabic with a tutor. Has anyone here had lessons with an Arabic teacher on italki whom you could recommend? I am sticking to MSA for the time being, so it does not matter what dialect the teacher speaks, as long as he/she is able to teach MSA.
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auntie mildred
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby auntie mildred » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:53 am

Ogrim wrote:I am thinking about signing up to italki and take a few Arabic lessons there. I believe I am soon at a stage where it would be useful to work on my Arabic with a tutor. Has anyone here had lessons with an Arabic teacher on italki whom you could recommend? I am sticking to MSA for the time being, so it does not matter what dialect the teacher speaks, as long as he/she is able to teach MSA.


I've had two - Ichrak (Tunisia) and Raghda (Palestine), but they were for conversation only. Still really good though. Ichrak and I just used to talk about make up and weddings all the time though, as we got engaged at around the same time. Raghda's a bit more structured and will set topics if you ask her (noting I had her for Levantine dialect, but I know she does MSA too). I'm taking a bit of a break from iTalki in Arabic but will probably go back in a couple of months, so let us know how you go!
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2018 output challenge
Spanish - writing : 5535 / 50000
Spanish - speaking : 270 / 3000
Arabic - writing : 2899 / 50000

DIY superchallenge - Spanish
Reading : 445 / 5000
Listening : 1325 / 9000

auntie mildred
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby auntie mildred » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:30 am

Hi guys, I joined the forum a couple of weeks ago and have finally got around to posting here (as promised in my log). I've been learning Arabic (MSA and various attempts at dialects) on and off for a while now so I have a fairly decent list of resources that are not al-Kitaab I've come across which you might find useful. I'll limit it to MSA for the moment, but if anyone's interested I've got some recommendations for Levantine dialect as well

Grammar/general
A New Arabic Grammar of the Written Language - Haywood
This is basically a book version of those DLI drill courses - one grammar concept per chapter, followed by 15 English-Arabic translation drills (and vice versa). Not sexy and useless for vocab, but fantastic for actually breaking down and internalising the grammar so that you both understand and remember it.

All the Arabic you never learned the first time around
More of a reference than a textbook, but this is awesome for plain English explanation of grammar topics. Also funny.
http://allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/

Desert Sky
Get your vocab lists here (and some basic grammar). This site is gold for beginners (or those of you raised on al-Kitaab) looking for core, basic vocab.
http://arabic.desert-sky.net/index.html

Practice Makes Perfect series
I have never seen these books mentioned anywhere but I had really good experiences with the Spanish version so am currently working through the Pronouns and Prepositions book and am finding it really useful. Similar approach to Haywood in that its very drill-y and focused on developing core concepts, but has a more modern approach. I also like it because the way its structured means that I can put the exercises into my Anki grammar deck as "cloze deletions" (like Clozemaster, but with more control) and basically just drill them into my head through sheer repetition whilst on my daily commute.

Also, if you haven't come across it the Mezzofanti Guild has heaps of info and reviews on Arabic resources in the blog section- https://www.mezzoguild.com. The guy who runs it is an Australian who speaks MSA and at least 2 of the dialects (I automatically rate him just for that, given the apparent lack of Aussie representation in the Arabic learning community). These two links provide a good starting point:
https://www.mezzoguild.com/learning-arabic-5-books-i-recommend/
https://www.mezzoguild.com/best-arabic-resources/
He also runs TalkinArabic, which I haven't tried and is much more geared towards dialects, however I will be going there when I pick up Levantine again. I really hope it does well because there's definitely a gap for good online resources in that space.

Reading
Reading I'm not having a huge amount of luck with outside news websites. al Jazeera has a very well organised Arabic learners section with exercises etc, but its definitely pitched a bit high for beginners - http://learning.aljazeera.net/en

Listening
For intensive listening practice, GLOSS is your one stop shop https://gloss.dliflc.edu/ Almost 500 audio clips across all levels, with transcripts. Get on it.

For extensive listening, I used to listen to the BBC Xtra podcasts - unfortunately no transcripts, but it focuses on culture/societal stuff so you get exposure to more of a "conversational" form of MSA.

FluentU have an Arabic learners blog which, although fairly infrequently updated, has some good links to listening/culture resources - https://www.fluentu.com/blog/arabic/

Finally, whilst its probably more focused on dialects, Arabic Music Translation has at least a few examples of songs in MSA where they give you the lyrics with additional commentary about grammar, idioms etc. This is really useful given how...opaque...Arabic can sometimes be with respect to meaning - http://www.arabicmusictranslation.com/
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2018 output challenge
Spanish - writing : 5535 / 50000
Spanish - speaking : 270 / 3000
Arabic - writing : 2899 / 50000

DIY superchallenge - Spanish
Reading : 445 / 5000
Listening : 1325 / 9000

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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby Ogrim » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:34 am

auntie mildred wrote:
Ogrim wrote:I am thinking about signing up to italki and take a few Arabic lessons there. I believe I am soon at a stage where it would be useful to work on my Arabic with a tutor. Has anyone here had lessons with an Arabic teacher on italki whom you could recommend? I am sticking to MSA for the time being, so it does not matter what dialect the teacher speaks, as long as he/she is able to teach MSA.


I've had two - Ichrak (Tunisia) and Raghda (Palestine), but they were for conversation only. Still really good though. Ichrak and I just used to talk about make up and weddings all the time though, as we got engaged at around the same time. Raghda's a bit more structured and will set topics if you ask her (noting I had her for Levantine dialect, but I know she does MSA too). I'm taking a bit of a break from iTalki in Arabic but will probably go back in a couple of months, so let us know how you go!


Thanks. I am still far from being able to hold a meaningful conversation on any topic, both my vocabulary and my grammar knowledge is too limited still. I am therefore a bit doubtful whether to try a lesson already now or wait until I have come a bit further in my studies. The reason for taking lessons at this stage would be to force myself to start talking a bit, and also to get a teacher to test my pronunciation and help me with some grammar issues. Anyway I will check out the profile of the two you mention.
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S7R
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby S7R » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:45 pm

Hi there
I'd like to say that if anyone wants an assistant with his Arabic lessons he studies. I'm a native Arabic speaker and I can help. this is my Skype name (sahar_248) "I do not know if it's allowed to put it here"!
And of course it is for free, not paid classes.

good luck
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Ogrim
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby Ogrim » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:41 am

For those who read French, here is an interesting, longish article called Le libanais n'est pas un dialecte arabe (Lebanese is not an Arabic dialect). Basically the author claimes that Lebanese is not descending from Arabic, but should be considered a Semitic dialect/language descending from some proto-Semitic language and having evolved independently of other Semitic languages, including Arabic.

I have no idea whether this claim/theory is correct or not, but anyone more advanced in Arabic and Levantine dialects may have a view on the authors arguments.
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DangerDave2010
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby DangerDave2010 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:15 pm

Ogrim wrote:For those who read French, here is an interesting, longish article called Le libanais n'est pas un dialecte arabe (Lebanese is not an Arabic dialect). Basically the author claimes that Lebanese is not descending from Arabic, but should be considered a Semitic dialect/language descending from some proto-Semitic language and having evolved independently of other Semitic languages, including Arabic.

I have no idea whether this claim/theory is correct or not, but anyone more advanced in Arabic and Levantine dialects may have a view on the authors arguments.


Next they will say that there are no Arabic dialects...
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby Systematiker » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:05 pm

Ogrim wrote:For those who read French, here is an interesting, longish article called Le libanais n'est pas un dialecte arabe (Lebanese is not an Arabic dialect). Basically the author claimes that Lebanese is not descending from Arabic, but should be considered a Semitic dialect/language descending from some proto-Semitic language and having evolved independently of other Semitic languages, including Arabic.

I have no idea whether this claim/theory is correct or not, but anyone more advanced in Arabic and Levantine dialects may have a view on the authors arguments.



This was a fascinating article. I also managed to spend (waste?) a great deal of time after reading it looking at more information, discovering that the "separate Semitic language" position is prevalent at least on the internet, and I may or may not have done the first couple lessons of a spoken Lebanese course....

Can I blame you for that? :lol:
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Ogrim
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Re: Team Middle East

Postby Ogrim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Systematiker wrote:.... I may or may not have done the first couple lessons of a spoken Lebanese course....

Can I blame you for that? :lol:


Be my guest. :)

I found this passage in the article particularly baffling:

L’arabe reste étranger à un Libanais (surtout aux personnes n’ayant pas étudié dans cette langue), ce qui explique pourquoi les Libanais s’écrivent en français ou en anglais, mais pas en libanais. (Exemple de données : j’ai vendu 97% de mes livres en français et en anglais au Liban, 3% seulement en arabe. Je n’ai aucun ami Libanais de ma génération ou plus jeune qui lit en arabe, sauf des documents juridiques. Je n’ai presque jamais reçu de lettre ou d’email en arabe de la part d’un autre Libanais.)


My translation: Arabic is a stranger to a Lebanese person, (especially to those who have not studied this language), which explains why the Lebanese write in French or English, but not in Lebanese (For example, I have sold 97% of my books in French and English in Lebanon, only 3% in Arabic. I have no Lebanese friend of my generation or younger who reads in Arabic, except legal documents. I have almost never received a letter or an e-mail in Arabic from another Lebanese.)

In Wikipedia I found the following:

Article 11 of Lebanon's Constitution states that "Arabic is the official national language. A law determines the cases in which the French language is to be used". The majority of Lebanese people speak Lebanese Arabic, which is grouped in a larger category called Levantine Arabic, while Modern Standard Arabic is mostly used in magazines, newspapers, and formal broadcast media. Lebanese Sign Language is the language of the deaf community. Almost 40% of Lebanese are considered francophone, and another 15% "partial francophone", and 70% of Lebanon's secondary schools use French as a second language of instruction. By comparison, English is used as a secondary language in 30% of Lebanon's secondary schools. The use of French is a legacy of France's historic ties to the region, including its League of Nations mandate over Lebanon following World War I; as of 2005, some 20% of the population used French on a daily basis. The use of Arabic by Lebanon's educated youth is declining, as they usually prefer to speak in French and, to a lesser extent, English, which are seen as more fashionable.


Everyone knows about the diglossia in Arab countries, but the situation in Lebanon seems to be quite exceptional. Unfortunately I have no Lebanese friends or acquaintances to ask directly whether they really think that Arabic is a "foreign" langauge to them.
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