Celtic Team - Study Group

An area with study groups for various languages. Group members help each other, share resources and experience. Study groups are permanent but the members rotate and change.
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:09 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:Ó Siadhail has an interesting article on this I'll see if I can dig up again.


This?

Standard Irish Orthography: An Assessment (I can't access it right now; maybe you can)
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby IronMike » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:32 am

Xenops wrote:
If I could pick someone's brain, I have impressions about the Celtic languages, and I don't know if they are correct.

Breton:
--endangered
--no support from France
--no well-known learning materials in English (maybe Assimil from French-base?)
--Forvo has 2,100 words recorded.

OMG! You totally forgot Cornish!

OK, first, I have Brezhoneg ...buan hag aes which is a great English-medium intro to Breton. (There's an Esperanto version, too!) I think there is audio available online. The Colloquial Breton is also good. I've only seen it in a library. Still have a saved search out there for one that might come up cheaply. ;) There used to be a quite good online free course through English. Can't find it now.

Now for Cornish. So much available out there for Cornish. The Cornish recently went through an agreement to have a unified spelling, called the standard written form. Texts are now being printed in the SWF. I have Skeul an Tavas and I really like it. Even without the SWF, it is easy to read Cornish in any of the various spellings after you get the hang of it, and even the old writings were in different spellings. I also did Kernewek dre Lyther (Cornish by Correspondence) about a decade ago and loved it. For a very small amount of money you get a fluent speaker to check your lessons and speak with you. It's a very fun language.
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Suairc » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:02 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:Ó Siadhail has an interesting article on this I'll see if I can dig up again.


This?

Standard Irish Orthography: An Assessment (I can't access it right now; maybe you can)


I haven't the time to read that article at the moment but will come back to it!

An excellent related read is Córas fuaimeanna na Gaeilge by Ó Siadhail and Arndt Wigger. It looks at the phonology of different dialects and assesses them in relation to the written standard. Here's a few quotes from the book as compiled years ago by member Peadar Ó Gríofa on daltai.com :

Ar an gcéad iarraidh, is iomaí scáine sa gcóras caighdeánach féin a chuirfeadh dris i gcosán lucht foghlaim. Níl sé ag luí le réasún, cuir i gcás, go scríobhfaí naofa, snáfa, nuair a ghlactar le pógtha, scuabtha, agus an díghlórú céanna i gceist sa dá chineál. Chuideodh sé le lucht foghlaim dhá gcuirfí cosc le litriú iomrallach den tsórt sin. Ar ndóigh, bheadh sé sin fíor faoi bhunáite na leasaithe a mholfar anseo...

B’fhearr cruaidh, gruaidh, ruadh, nuadh, báidh, pláigh, buaidh a scríobh in áit crua, grua, rua, nua, bá, plá, bua...

Sampla deas atá sa bhfocal pá(ighe), mar a thug Ó Murchú faoi deara. Ní raibh aon chall a bheith i dtuilleamaí dromchla aon chanúint amháin, .i. pá, nuair a d’fhéadfaí na foirmeacha a shíolrú as páighe...

Fearacht páighe, b'fhearr láighe, truaighe, nuaidheacht, luaigheacht ná láí, trua, nuacht, luaíocht...

Ba chóir na focla dlí agus guí a scríobh mar dligheadh agus guidhe...

Sna focla iomaí agus garraí, tá canúintí faoi leith roghnaithe faoi chomhair an Chaighdeáin. B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé níos cothroime iomdha agus gar(r)dha a scríobh. Ansin bheadh duine in ann iad a léamh mar /umi:/ nó /umu:/, /gari:/ nó /garu:/ de réir na canúna...

Glacadh sa gCaighdeán le dheachaigh; ba chóir go nglacfaí freisin le fhacaidh, chualaidh, tharlaidh. Ar an gcaoi seo, ghéillfí do bhunáite na gcanúintí agus thaispeanfaí rialtacht...

...ba chóra léigheann, léighfidh, chomh maith le léighte, léaghamh ... Ar ndóigh, tá go leor briathra den chineál seo ann: dóigheann, tráigheann, súigheann, téidheann, srl.

Fearacht léann nó líonn, fágann sáim, báim, srl. Co. Mhuí Eo agus Tír Chonaill as an gcomhaireamh...agus ba cheart sáitheann, sáithfidh...

...molann muid dlúthas, luathas, gnáthach a scríobh...

Dhá dtuigfeadh an cainteoir gur bhain an litriú go dlúth lena chanúint féin is túisce a ghéillfeadh sé don chaighdeán. Dhá mba léir dó narbh iarracht eile é le canúint eile a bhualadh thall air, b’fhéidir go bhféadfaí canúnachas agus cúigeachas a chur i leataobh. Tar éis an tsaoil, easpa* muiníne is ciontsiocair leis an drogall atá ar chainteoir leaganacha as canúintí eile a tharraint aige féin..."
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Xenops » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 pm

IronMike wrote:OMG! You totally forgot Cornish!

Now for Cornish. So much available out there for Cornish. The Cornish recently went through an agreement to have a unified spelling, called the standard written form. Texts are now being printed in the SWF. I have Skeul an Tavas and I really like it. Even without the SWF, it is easy to read Cornish in any of the various spellings after you get the hang of it, and even the old writings were in different spellings. I also did Kernewek dre Lyther (Cornish by Correspondence) about a decade ago and loved it. For a very small amount of money you get a fluent speaker to check your lessons and speak with you. It's a very fun language.


Yep. :oops: :lol: I guess I thought it was still totally extinct? That there has been a revival and it's gaining speakers is news to me.

I clicked on the KDL link: those are some very reasonable prices! My goodness. :o

Josquin wrote:"Irish pronunciation is difficult because of the sounds of Irish": This is partly true, because Irish distinguishes between two sets of consonants, "broad" (velarized) and "slender" (palatalized). This is not true for Welsh and Breton and only partly true for Scottish Gaelic and Manx. Scottish Gaelic "slender" sounds are much easier to pronounce correctly than Irish slender sounds IMHO. On the other hand, ScG has some unusual vowels Irish got rid of long ago, so this might keep the balance between the two languages.


I remember picking up an Irish learning book at the library, and reading about these consonants, and it has since scared me away from Irish.

Cainntear wrote:There is less dialectal variation than Irish, because the remaining dialects are geographically close, whereas the Irish-speaking areas of Ireland are distant and isolated from each other. The language is less standardised than Irish -- Irish has an official standard form that doesn't really match the dialects, whereas Gaelic only has a standard orthography; i.e. write in whatever dialect you want, but spell it this way.


That's what I was guessing: that since the pockets of Irish are farther apart, there is more dialectal differences, whereas in Scottish the pockets are closer together.

Currently I'm seeing a very decent number of *free* Scottish Gaelic resources, and it's tempting me to try learning it for the Free and Legal Challenge (at least up to A1). I have yet to confirm this option. My reasons would also include 1. it's a heritage language for me, and 2. I like the orthography the most of the Celtic languages. It looks pretty to me. :D

How is this website in terms of learning the pronunciation? http://www.akerbeltz.org/index.php?title=Vowels
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Cainntear » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:23 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:This is an issue with the current orthography. It's highly favoured towards Munster Irish. Before they got rid of the 'silent' letters, it was actually a lot easier to come up with consistent rules for each dialect based on the spellings. Now you've got teachers telling kids from Donegal, Mayo and Connemara that their native words are wrong because it doesn't match the Munster spelling. Ó Siadhail has an interesting article on this I'll see if I can dig up again.

That's probably accidental. The official standard was allegedly written without the input of a single native speaker of the language, and the idea of "silent letters" may simply be down to the fact that many learners can't hear the difference between a y-glide (the DH in ScG cridh') and a long-vowel (the í in croí) because of the diphthongisation of all vowels in their native English. i.e. The "silent letters" were removed because the guys writing the standard couldn't hear that they weren't silent. Bloody stupid.
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Cainntear » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:24 pm

Xenops wrote:How is this website in terms of learning the pronunciation? http://www.akerbeltz.org/index.php?title=Vowels

That's the best site you'll find. A bit baffling to the average learner, but if you've had any exposure to the IPA and/or articulatory phonetics, you'll get a lot out of it. Ak knows his stuff.
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Iversen » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm

The one thing I detest about the modern spelling of Irish is that it has retained the old rule "leathan le leathan, caol le caol", which means that the Irish still write lots af vowels whose only purpose is to indicate whether a consonant is slender or broad - and not only one vowel per consonant, but one on each side of that consonant. The result is that I constantly make wrong guesses about which wowels actually are the ones that should be pronounced as independent sounds (unless they have an accent, which makes them long - only then I can trust that they actually are meant to be pronounced).

On the other hand I have now become accostumed to ignoring h as second letters and the first consonant in impossible clusters when I look words up in my dictionary. Ok, there are a few words that actually do occur as headwords with an h in second position, but chances are better to find a word if you ignore the h's. I can live with that.

As for the differences between dialects I just know that my old TY is conservative and leans towards some kind of literary Munster lingo, and that my Grammar Book represents the compromise language which isn't spoken by anybody. That just means that I can do whatever I want - it will be wrong in at least one dialect.
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Josquin » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:52 pm

Xenops wrote:
Josquin wrote:"Irish pronunciation is difficult because of the sounds of Irish": This is partly true, because Irish distinguishes between two sets of consonants, "broad" (velarized) and "slender" (palatalized). This is not true for Welsh and Breton and only partly true for Scottish Gaelic and Manx. Scottish Gaelic "slender" sounds are much easier to pronounce correctly than Irish slender sounds IMHO. On the other hand, ScG has some unusual vowels Irish got rid of long ago, so this might keep the balance between the two languages.


I remember picking up an Irish learning book at the library, and reading about these consonants, and it has since scared me away from Irish.

Oh, broad and slender consonants shouldn't keep you from studying Irish. In fact, Scottish Gaelic has them, too. They're only pronounced a little bit differently, which may be easier for native speakers of English though. ;)
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Xenops » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:52 pm

Cainntear wrote:...


Thank you for the info. :) I was also wondering about this website?

https://taic.me.uk/feuch/Content/taic.htm
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Re: Celtic Team - Study Group

Postby Cainntear » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:11 pm

Xenops wrote:
Cainntear wrote:...


Thank you for the info. :) I was also wondering about this website?

https://taic.me.uk/feuch/Content/taic.htm

It's good stuff, just not a lot. It's one of the ones regularly recommended to beginners.
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