Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

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Speakeasy
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:52 am

joecleland wrote: J'ai adoré la vidéo. C'etait intéressant. Merci d'avoir posté
The following is not meant as a criticism; on the contrary, it is meant as helpful advice.

About two weeks ago, during a conversation (in French) with my Québécoise wife and her childhood friend, both of whom are retired professional translators, I mentioned that I had “posté” a comment on the LLORG. They reacted in joint horror. I had notposté” a comment on the internet; rather, I had “publié” my comment. Oops! :oops:
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jeffers
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby jeffers » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:46 pm

Speakeasy wrote:
joecleland wrote: J'ai adoré la vidéo. C'etait intéressant. Merci d'avoir posté
The following is not meant as a criticism; on the contrary, it is meant as helpful advice.

About two weeks ago, during a conversation (in French) with my Québécoise wife and her childhood friend, both of whom are retired professional translators, I mentioned that I had “posté” a comment on the LLORG. They reacted in joint horror. I had notposté” a comment on the internet; rather, I had “publié” my comment. Oops! :oops:


Now that you say it, it seems rather obvious!

[I have a vague notion that the "Go" or "Post" button on French apps and websites says "Pub"]
Last edited by jeffers on Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Speakeasy
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:51 pm

jeffers wrote: Now that you say it, it seems rather obvious!
Quite! That's exactly what my wife and her friend said. Nevertheless, in making this observation, they were anything but tendres à mon égard.
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IronMike
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby IronMike » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:44 pm

Hello dear friends. Not a member of this group, not currently, but as a former student of French (many decades ago...ouch), I felt this picture summed up the hilarity of French orthography. Enjoy in good humor.

Image
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Speakeasy
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:56 pm

IronMike wrote: ... I felt this picture summed up the hilarity of French orthography ...
I enjoyed some of the comments. To be fair, though, while French orthography is frequently the subject of well-deserved criticism, English orthography is not much better. Either English spelling should undergo a drastic reform (a thoroughly unrealistic idea) or we should adopt a system of diacritics such as the one used for Polish, despite the latter's admitted imperfections. Here is an example of the vagaries English orthography: “ghoti” could be pronounced as “fish” under the following rules (or exceptions to rules) …

gh = "f" as in enough
o = "i" as in women
ti = "sh" as in nation

EDITED:
ghoti
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:00 am

Speakeasy wrote:....while French orthography is frequently the subject of well-deserved criticism, English orthography is not much better.


Indeed. In fact, in my experience French pronunciation is predictable, provided one has thoroughly learned to associate the phonetics with the various orthographic representations of each phoneme. And that's actually not that difficult, really. There are few exceptions in French once one has the phonetics-spelling under control. Most of the exceptions (unpredictable pronunciation) in French in my experience come from foreign introduced (often English) words relatively recent arrivals in the language.

Those who don't agree have either not learned enough French yet or did not/ have not learned to associate the phonetics with the various spellings as already mentioned. Oiseau(x) may look daunting to the uninitiated, or inexperienced, but in reality it's just two syllables [wazo].

English is nowhere near as predictable. Like French (and the majority of languages), it has an orthographic system a.k.a. spelling system which seeks to represent the phonemes of the language. However, as Speakeasy has noted, it is far from perfect. Unlike French it is not predictable, in that, if you work out how a certain phoneme is represented in writing (even if this is involves several variations) it should become predictable and be written in one of the few predictable ways elsewhere. Nope, English is full of inconsistencies and exceptions where pronunciation is concerned.

French may have tons of grammatical exceptions, but phonetically it is not what the uninitiated may believe. oi is [wa] as in je vois, on voit, une oie, une bte, quelque fois, moi, toi, des oiseaux, etc. Pretty predictable. [o] is des oiseaux, eau, un seau, haut, bientôt. Might be more. Again, pretty predictable stuff. In other words, don't let the succession of vowels frighten you, it's all pretty workable.

Almost all phonemes in French are predictable. Again, English is not predictable like this. Okay, it is, but then it's not because there are inconsistencies and numerous exceptions (that French does not have). What Speakeasy mentioned already, illustrates this. There's no reason serious or experienced learners should be finding French spelling unpredictable.

On the other hand, it can be tricky sometimes knowing how to spell French word you're hearing for the first time as, like my examples of oi show above, the same sound can be written several ways. Anyway... walks away holding a pancarte (or pencarte?) - in English, a placard with "Stop the French bashing" scrawled on it - "English is worse!".
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jeffers
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby jeffers » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:25 am

Speakeasy wrote: Here is an example of the vagaries English orthography: “ghoti” could be pronounced as “fish” under the following rules (or exceptions to rules) …

gh = "f" as in enough
o = "i" as in women
ti = "sh" as in nationi


That's a familiar example, but I've never liked it because actually the "rules" aren't being followed. gh only = "f" at the end of a word, never at the beginning. ti only = "sh" when followed by 2 or 3 specific pairs of letters (on, an, and maybe one or two I can't think of).

That's not to disagree that English orthagraphy is difficult. For example, I used the word "only" in both cases with a bit of trepidation. :lol:
Last edited by jeffers on Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tomgosse
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby tomgosse » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:24 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Speakeasy wrote:....while French orthography is frequently the subject of well-deserved criticism, English orthography is not much better.

English is nowhere near as predictable. Like French (and the majority of languages), it has an orthographic system a.k.a. spelling system which seeks to represent the phonemes of the language. However, as Speakeasy has noted, it is far from perfect. Unlike French it is not predictable, in that, if you work out how a certain phoneme is represented in writing (even if this is involves several variations) it should become predictable and be written in one of the few predictable ways elsewhere. Nope, English is full of inconsistencies and exceptions where pronunciation is concerned.


This is my favorite example of English words using the letters ough. As native speaker of English I find this difficult.

Though he hadn’t thoroughly thought it through, the ploughman felt that sleeping rough by the lough had made him hiccough and cough.
This sentence contains nine different pronunciations of ough
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Speakeasy
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:26 pm

tomgosse wrote: This is my favorite example of English words using the letters ough. As native speaker of English I find this difficult.

Though he hadn’t thoroughly thought it through, the ploughman felt that sleeping rough by the lough had made him hiccough and cough.

This sentence contains nine different pronunciations of ough
Absolutely fabulous! I suggest (quite seriously) that you create an “English Study Group” and that you post this example on the homepage. Although such a group might attract novice learners of English, it could also serve as a place for native English speakers and advanced learners alike to expose their frustrations with the language and discuss matters touching upon English usage which frequently show up in the "General Language Discussion" and "Practical Questions and Advice" sub-forums.
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chove
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby chove » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:52 am

Any advice for getting started with pronouncing/spelling French?
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