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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:24 pm
by Lianne
Speakeasy wrote:Lianne, your intervention, in reply to a rather innocuous post, is difficult to understand. What were you trying to achieve? When you qualify something as "notoriously awful" and then, in a subsequent post, refer to this an "off-handed joke" only to qualify French language instruction as "crappy", I believe that I am allowed to take you a your word; that is, you hold Canadian instruction of French as a Second Language in extremely low regard. Perhaps you could strengthen your argument by providing a little proof?

My position is that it is quite possible that any perceived problems with Canadian instruction of French as a Second Language are not isolated to our nation's educational system. That is, second language instruction throughout North America is widely perceived as being ineffective and in need of a complete overhaul. There have been numerous discussions on this forum wherein many members express such concerns.

Finally, my comments concerning the discouraging results of ROC high school students' measurable skills in other subjects were a sincere expression of dissatisfaction with observable results. In my opinion, the problem of "poor education" is wide-spread: the system has been producing barely-literate and only nominally-informed citizens for decades, instruction in French as a second language is but one example.

*sigh*
1) My very first comment on this subject was just an off-handed joke. One that I did not expect to be controversial. I only got more serious in subsequent replies because you did.
2) Yes, I hold Canadian instruction of FSL in low regard. So does everyone I know. I have no proof to give, only the anecdote that I and most of the people I know went to English schools, took French for a number of years, and finished knowing a negligible amount of French. I can add to that the fact that French teachers are not required to be fluent in French in English schools; they need only know what they have to teach.
2a) Exception: I know many people who went to French immersion schools who ended up fluent in French. I speak only of English schools here.
3) I never said this was a problem only in Canadian schools. Given the United States' reputation for monolingualism, I don't imagine their language education is any better.
4) Your comment on the other subjects came across like you were saying that Quebec was better than the rest of Canada in that regard. If this was not your intention, then never mind. I feel no need to debate the overall quality of Canadian public education. (If you did mean Quebec was better, then my annoyance stands, but I will not be able to argue further on that within the rules of this forum.)

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:54 pm
by Speakeasy
Lianne wrote:*sigh* ...
I take this as a sign of frustration on your part. Nevertheless, I am deeply offended by the implication that you are dealing with someone who is incapable of coping with your well-reasoned arguments (I have yet to see any here) or your monstrously effective sense of humour (ditto).

I did not invite you, or anyone else, to comment on the “years” of instruction that ROC students receive in French as a second language. And yet, ...

You chose to quote my affirmation of FACT and to qualify it as a “VERY generous description of anglo-Canadians' French education”.

You seem intent on avoiding that this statement of FACT was NOT a qualitative “description” of French education in the ROC, but merely (as I subsequently explained), a statement in support of the Quebec government’s policy with respect to French language instruction for immigrants.

You attempted to pass off your harsh judgment of French second language instruction in the ROC as an “off-handed joke” but, in the very same sentence, continued to describe it as “crappy”.

And now, you are implying that I have taken a strong position against high school education in the ROC based on my presumed belief that I consider the Quebec education system superior (no, they're both crappy!). I challenge you to provide some proof of such an absurd assertion!

You are responsible for this diversion of an innocuous post, the goal of which was merely to draw the attention of the members of the French study group to the laudable efforts on the part of the Quebec government to integrate immigrants into the receiving society.

SIGH !!!

EDITED:
Erreurs de frappe, bien entendu!

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:58 pm
by Lianne
Speakeasy wrote:
Lianne wrote:*sigh* ...
I take this as a sign of frustration on your part. Nevertheless, I am deeply offended by the implication that you are dealing with someone who is incapable of coping with your well-reasoned arguments (I have yet to see any here) or your monstrously effective sense of humour (ditto).

If you (correctly) took my sigh as a sign of frustration, then why did you immediately afterwards switch to interpreting it as condescending? I in no way think you are "incapable of coping with [my] well-reasoned arguments".

I beg of you, let me go on with my day. I deeply regret commenting a joke and starting this nightmare.

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:09 pm
by Speakeasy
Lianne wrote: If you (correctly) took my sigh as a sign of frustration, then why did you immediately afterwards switch to interpreting it as condescending?
I said I was offended because ... I genuinely felt that your "sigh" was, indeed, condescending. By today's societal standards, anyone who believes that they have been offended, has the unchallenged moral right to say so as long as such statements are genuine reflections of their inner turmoil. I took your "sigh" as a gratuitous insult.
Lianne wrote: I beg of you, let me go on with my day...
Please, do!

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:55 am
by Bluepaint
Enough. Let's get back to our French adventure! :)

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:12 am
by Randorama
Dear all,

my name is Francesco-Alessio, and I generally use the moniker "Randorama".

I hope that my first post is not a violation any rules regarding posts on the forum, as I would like to join the conversation on French and ask a question all at once (!).

I studied French in high school, but my proficiency has dramatically waned over the 15 years I completed secondary education. I am trying to recover some decent command of the language, with a decent degree of success: I can write short texts, have relatively simple conversations, read texts with a minimal help from the dictionary, and so on.

Recently, I have become rather perplexed by the use of prepositions in some rather specific scenarios. I was trying to describe the position of a friend to a second friend, who was in front of a car and approximately at three metres from said car.

I found myself struggling to convey the (simple?) concept, so I tried with:

"Maxime est situé trois metres devant la voiture"

My French friend proposed that a better sentence would be:

"Maxime est situé à trois metres devant la voiture"

but even as a native speaker he was not entirely certain of which sentence would be more appropriate (i.e. with or without "à" before "trois metres"). He certainly preferred the second example, and suggested that other prepositions would follow a similar pattern when one tries to combine them with expressions of distance (here, "trois metres").

I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this matter, as I am at loss on how to check this grammar rule. Maybe I am sloppy, but I could not find any indications in the reference books I have.

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

Francesco-Alessio

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:57 am
by PeterMollenburg
wow :shock:

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:40 am
by DaveAgain
Randorama wrote:Recently, I have become rather perplexed by the use of prepositions in some rather specific scenarios. I was trying to describe the position of a friend to a second friend, who was in front of a car and approximately at three metres from said car.

I found myself struggling to convey the (simple?) concept, so I tried with:

"Maxime est situé trois metres devant la voiture"

My French friend proposed that a better sentence would be:

"Maxime est situé à trois metres devant la voiture"

but even as a native speaker he was not entirely certain of which sentence would be more appropriate (i.e. with or without "à" before "trois metres"). He certainly preferred the second example, and suggested that other prepositions would follow a similar pattern when one tries to combine them with expressions of distance (here, "trois metres").
Lawless french has a page on use/meaning of à which seems appropriate.
The preposition à is generally summarized as "to, at, or in," but it has quite a few more meanings and uses than that.

2) Location
Habitez-vous à Toulouse ? Do you live in Toulouse?
Elle est à l’école. She’s at school.

3) Distance
Nous sommes à deux kilomètres de la plage. We’re two kilometers from the beach.
Il habite à 20 minutes d’ici. He lives 20 minutes away from here.

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/a-preposition/

-----
My copy of Bescherelle école (isbn: 2218715082) gives the uses of à as:
    1. la fonction: une tasse à café
    2. la qualité: une veste à careaux
    3. le lieu: à Monpellier, au café
    4. le temps: à dix heures

Your example seems to fit the place/distance use case.

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:59 pm
by Speakeasy
Zénith / Nadir (specialized vocabulary)

Yesterday, while my wife and I were running a few errands, we both took notice of a panel truck on which the owner’s business name appeared in large letters: Nadir Électrique. Turning to my wife, I suggested that either “Nadir” was the operator’s last name, in which case I wondered about the signification as a family name, or the owner had made a fundamental mistake of “messaging” his technical prowess…

Owing to the specialized training that I received in the RCN so many (many) decades ago, I developed an insider’s appreciation of the words “zenith” and “nadir”. For the uninitiated (as I once was) here are the definitions and etymologies as provided in the “Dictionnaire historique de la langue française” published par Les éditions Le Robert:

Zénith: n.m., réfection (1356-1365, Oresme) de cenith (1338), est un emprunt au latin médiéval zénit (v.1150). cenith (v. 1184), zenith (av.1232), formes qui viennent d’une mauvaise lecture de zemi, transcription dans l’alphabet latin de l’arabe samt (chemin), surtout employé dans l’expression « samt ra’s » ((chemin (au dessus) de la tête)) (-> azimuth). Le mot désigne le point de la sphère céleste situé sur la verticale ascendante d’un observateur, opposé au nadir*. Il s’emploie pour « point culminant » (1608) (cf. apogée).

Nadir : n.m., est emprunté (1366) à l’arabe nazir, nasr, « opposé, vis-à-viz » , pris par ellipse de nazir as-sams « opposé au soleil » (-> zénith). Le latin médiéval atteste nadir dès 1233 et l’italien nadir (av. 1350).
Le mot est un terme d’astronomie désignant le point de la sphère céleste opposé au zénith.

Celestial Sphere.JPG

Many of us are familiar with the English “Zenith” and would recognize it as being frequently used by businesses wishing to extol the virtues of their products/services as being “le nec plus ultra” in terms of quality. By the same token, few of us are likely to have encountered its opposite/antonym, “Nadir” unless they remember it from their courses/readings in Spherical Trigonometry, Celestial Navigation, Astronomy, or Astrology.

While, in my view, this pair of words would fall into the category of “specialized vocabulary”, I remain somewhat curious about “Nadir Électrique”. Given the low frequency of this word, it is unlikely that the business owner would be familiar with the word's dictionary definition and had probably NOT made an "messaging error" in promoting his technical prowess. So, I would imagine that Nadir references the owner’s family name. But, then again, given the etymology, « opposé au soleil », and having no knowledge of the Arabic language or culture, I am still somewhat perplexed by such a usage. Would anyone happen to know more about this?

Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:00 pm
by Klara
I have just googled "Nadir Electric" and Jeff Nadir is the Health and Safety Director. Perhaps he was once the founder - if you really want to know more about the name, why not send a mail to the company... 8-)

Nadir.PNG