Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:31 pm

Cavesa wrote:
When it comes to the usual cefr labeled coursebooks (+grammar books, vocab builders, and so on), there is such data. The cefr level is defined in much more detail, than what people usually look at, including the grammar and vocab, and so on. So, the label means what part of the defined knowledge on the list it should cover. (For example the Spanish cefr definitions are publicly available on the Cervantes website. You can check what pieces of grammar, what types of interactions, what words you should know at each level. And the coursebooks with the cefr label follow that. A French publication like this most probably exists, but I haven't seen it publicly available for free)

Nobody can guarantee you will reach the level, but the book covers the required knowledge you need in order to get there. Most people don't, but it is because of lack of more practice and because of individual differences. Also, an A1 coursebook can be trusted to cover everything for that level, a C1 coursebook is always just a sample (but can still be very useful).

The teachers are more complicated. The biggest problem is, that they tend to take such questions as an offense. Or they avoid the answers either because they want to hide the facts away or sometimes out of ignorance. For example, I asked about the end level at my sister's school, when she was choosing her second foreign language. I asked what level do the students usually reach by the time they finish high school and also how many do pass the cefr exams and at what levels (at my highschool, a not that small % of students was taking those exams, it was normal). The teacher didn't even understand my questions and started like "but we do not force them to take such exams!" What the hell?

With the individual tutoring (but also some classes), it becomes even more tricky, as the tutors do not usually follow a coursebook. So, they are often guessing the levels even more wildly than the learners themselves. It seems to be a common experience on this forum that the tutor makes the learner do activities for a much lower level. They have no clue.


Probably some universities, some language schools, the Foreign Service Institute and other schools could provide such data, though I don’t know whether in fact they can or do.


They don't bother. It would be natural and not complicated at all, if for example the local AF put the info on their website, as something to be proud of. Like: "the B1.4 classes were attended by 28 students in the year 2017/18, 7 of them took DELF B1, 6 passed, and the average note was 65. 23 students decided to continue in the B2.1 class". But they simply don't bother, because the mainstream language learners do not demand enough information.

The universities often give such information, but I am not sure how trustworthy it is. For example the French degree students in Prague are supposed to reach C1 at the end of BA (is that the lower level degree in the anglophone countries?) and C2 at the end of the Master degree. It's not just about the language, there is a lot of literature, some history, etc. Yet, a student of the Master degree I met years ago told me: "I don't read the obligatory books in French, it would take me too much time". Doesn't sound like C2 (or even C1).
My apologies for quoting everything you said, but my response won't be completely clear without referring to it.

College degrees: I can't speak for all anglophone countries, but in the USA most degrees work this way.

1. After 4 years, that is, 8 semesters, one gets a bachelor's degree. Generally, the degree is either a BA (bachelor of arts) or BS (bachelor of science). It depends on one's general course of studies. There are other kinds of bachelor's degree, too, but someone majoring in a language would get a BA. The bachelor's program in a language would include 24 hours, or 8 courses, in the language. If that's 3 hours per week for 18 weeks per semester, and adding 2 hours out of class for every hour in class, then you have 3 x 18 + 6 x 18 X 8 = 1296 hours. That should be enough for a native English speaker to get a decent grasp of a romance language.

2. After a further 2 years in a graduate program, the language student would earn an MA, Master of Arts.

3. Further study for a doctorate would result, usually, in a Ph. D. The time would vary, but it often takes four years. One assumes that 10 years would be enough even for an English speaker to acquire a firm grasp of nearly any language taught at the university level.

I do not know what language level a Ph. D. program would lead to. Only one of my professors ever discussed his university background. He earned a doctorate degree, and part of that degree required living a year with a family in France. He also told us his doctoral thesis was on the prose of the Duc de Simon.

There is some internal monitoring going on I suppose by language instructors. At least I at any rate, after four semesters of French and getting an A every semester, was strongly advised by my fourth semester professor to NOT take any more French classes. She was right to tell me that, by the way.

That is all I can say about that.

In the USA, colleges have an academic ranking of sorts, but the criteria for that ranking are obscure, at least to me. There are "good" schools, "average" schools, and schools that are neither. Getting into any college is often just a matter of good grades in high school and extracurricular activies. The "better" schools demand the most, I suppose, though for them economic and social status can also play a role.

The upshot of all this is that many American high school students just want to get into the "best" college they can, with probably some attention being paid to what course of study the college is best at. For example, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology is well known for its engineering programs. Whatever that might mean.

In sum, colleges do not advertise the accomplishments of their programs and their graduates mostly because nobody asks or cares. It's all assumptions.

As for non-academic courses and instructors and tutors, much of their reticence about their results is from as you say a desire to hide the facts or from ignorance. Maybe I would call the latter from being naive about language learning. But the difference between "ignorant" and "naive" can be very small.

As for the high school teacher you talked to, her response would be amusing but not surprising here in the States, but I have been out of high school for rather a long time, so times may have changed, not only with regard to language learning in high school but also with regard to language programs in colleges.

Thanks for the information about the CEFR, and, as for the rest of what you say, I agree with what you say and with the tone in which you say it.

I have forgotten how to respond to more than one post in one reply, so I will respond to the others who commented on my OP in following posts.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:33 pm

zjones wrote:RFI Savoirs has a lot more than just Journal en Français Facile.

I have been doing these kinds of exercises (Exercise 1, Exercise 2) on their website and I think they are great for listening comprehension! These exercises are aimed at students at level B2, but they would be appropriate for students at level B1 as well.

RFI Savoirs is my favorite website for improving my news and media vocabulary in preparation for the DELF.

I was unaware of this resource. Thanks for bringing it up.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:44 pm

javier_getafe wrote:But, at this moment, I am pretty enthusiastic to reach a goal. I think it is a believable and approachable target. To reach A1 level in one year, isn't it?
If you study an hour or so a day with proper materials, then, yes, IMHO A1 in one year seems like a reasonable goal.
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Re: French Group 2016 - Les Voyageurs

Postby Jean-Luc » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:54 pm

French ressources:
You can add to the list these two top websites:

https://www.projet-voltaire.fr pour l'orthographe

https://www.francaisfacile.com with more than 9000 exercices with pop menus (OK the design is vintage but the content is great)
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby tastyonions » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:13 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
javier_getafe wrote:But, at this moment, I am pretty enthusiastic to reach a goal. I think it is a believable and approachable target. To reach A1 level in one year, isn't it?
If you study an hour or so a day with proper materials, then, yes, IMHO A1 in one year seems like a reasonable goal.

For a native Spanish speaker, I would say at least A2 or B1 with an hour per day would be reasonable.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby javier_getafe » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:14 pm

tastyonions wrote:
MorkTheFiddle wrote:
javier_getafe wrote:But, at this moment, I am pretty enthusiastic to reach a goal. I think it is a believable and approachable target. To reach A1 level in one year, isn't it?
If you study an hour or so a day with proper materials, then, yes, IMHO A1 in one year seems like a reasonable goal.

For a native Spanish speaker, I would say at least A2 or B1 with an hour per day would be reasonable.


:shock: For goodness sake! B1 is completely out of my head! I really like being completaly realistic about that. You only need to take into account that it took me to reach B1 certificated english level 3 years ( and, back then I began from A1, since I was a false beginner) so..., moreover, I can assure you that I worked very hard.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby aravinda » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:35 pm

"État Présent
Read the État Présent for free

In the sixty years since its inception, French Studies has been a leading forum for the publication of ground-breaking work and for critical debate. The editor and board members of French Studies are pleased to make this scholarship freely available - just click on the full-text links below to access the article(s) that interest you..."
https://academic.oup.com/fs/pages/etatspresents
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby rdearman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:37 pm

aravinda wrote:"État Présent
Read the État Présent for free

In the sixty years since its inception, French Studies has been a leading forum for the publication of ground-breaking work and for critical debate. The editor and board members of French Studies are pleased to make this scholarship freely available - just click on the full-text links below to access the article(s) that interest you..."
https://academic.oup.com/fs/pages/etatspresents

These all appear to be in English.
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aravinda
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby aravinda » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:52 pm

rdearman wrote:These all appear to be in English.
Yes, most of them are in English unfortunately, but there are a few in French. For example:
Les Études sur les femmes écrivains du XVIe siècle français
Écritures du voyage à la Renaissance
Also, there're some articles on French verse, French syntax etc which of course are very academic. There's even an article on Obscenity in Sixteenth- and Seventeenth-Century France! :)
Last edited by aravinda on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Le groupe français 2016 - 2019 Les Voyageurs

Postby DaveAgain » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:28 am

There was a lovely tune on the radio this morning that turned out to be by a french composer: Pavane Opus 50 by Gabriel Fauré.
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